

Refill cartridges cost more than a new (fully loaded) printer - bfrs
https://plus.google.com/101416274833608453021/posts/T9iENrg8roa

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vlad
I looked up the model number, and two interesting facts are not pointed out
(as Sebastian probably did not expect this to appear all over the internet).

The first fact is that HP offers the printer and cartridges at similar prices
on their web site. This means the discrepancy is not due to a crazy sale on
Amazon. Even according to the HP web site, the price of four replacement
cartridges is $822, while the price of the printer (which includes the
cartridges) is $699. Though Amazon reports that at some point, the printer may
have been sold for up to $885 since it was launched in October, that's still
almost identical to the cost of the cartridges.)

Second, also by design, the printer comes with the full cartridges, not
starter ones...

[http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF28a/18972-18972-33...](http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF28a/18972-18972-3328060-15077-236268-4184772-4184773-4184776.html?dnr=1﻿)

~~~
vlad
I can only imagine that:

1) HP makes a profit when people buy this $699 printer (though not as large as
when they sell four ink tanks without a printer for $822);

2) Every printer re-purchase helps maintain their 40% marketshare in the
printer business, if it's measured by printers sold rather than cartridges
sold;

3) Every printer re-purchase keeps a sale away from Brother or another
competitor;

4) HP's printing division has now been merged into the declining PC division,
so nobody would notice the declining printer margins amongst lower-margin PC's
anyway.

"HP's new CEO Meg Whitman, who calls the printing division "the lifeblood of
HP," responded to the decline by folding it into the PC division, which saw a
15% drop in revenue last quarter. _That will solve one problem: concealing the
extent of the decline in HP's printer margins by blending it with lower-margin
PCs._ More practically, it could give HP greater leverage in negotiating
prices with component suppliers."

From: <http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/03/29/hps-printer-problem/>

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mcargian
The printer usually comes with less ink per cartridge than the refills. So
buying a new printer every time you run out of ink is not cheaper than buying
the refills.

Nor practical.

~~~
genwin
When my $50 laserjet runs out of ink (going on 3 years now; I don't print
much), I may just leave it at the end of the driveway and get another $50
printer, even if the > $50 cartridge would last longer than the starter
cartridge.

~~~
dangrossman
You should check check the prices first. I know I looked into Brother lasers,
and the preinstalled cartridge is only rated for 600 pages. A high-yield black
toner cartridge is only $47 and prints 2600 pages. And $50 doesn't get you
much of a laser printer.

~~~
biturd
And the rating of 600 pages is low, it is determined in software on the
starter toner. On my brother, there is a small hole on the cartridge that
light is passed through to detect the toner level.

My printer is at 3200 pages on the starter toner because I put a piece of tape
over the sensor which makes it believe it is always full of toner.

New printers from Brother which I bought the same model for my in-laws, have
solved this hack. But you can buy a replacement gear online for a few bucks,
it pops on, and then you have access to the same method I used to trick the
printer.

Once the stater runs out, I will get a toner replacement and also tape the
sensor. Even if it prints a little light, all it takes it taking the cartridge
out and shaking it a little. This will buy you another month.

If you are on Mac OS X or Linux and access the printer through CUPS, ( not
sure about Windows and how to access these settings ) and you can set the DPI
to a lower rate and put it in toner saver mode. I can't tell a difference
unless I have a side by side to compare. Plus, this is just black and white so
invoices, driving directions, stuff like that. I don't care about the quality
of a halftone image.

~~~
dangrossman
Should note that doing this can damage the printer. The toner particles that
don't stick keep getting recycled back into the cartridge until eventually
clumps of that crud are most of what's in it, and you're still trying to use
more and more voltage to pull it out onto the paper... possibly getting it
stuck somewhere else in the printer, damaging the drum, clogging a fan, or any
number of risks.

If you're 5 times past the rated capacity of the cartridge and it's printing
light, instead of shaking the crud around and putting it back in, just buy
another cartridge... unless you WANT to destroy your in-laws' printer and burn
their house down.

~~~
justincormack
Citation needed. I have never heard of a house being burned down by this
means.

------
polemic
Ug:

> _"Sounds like a market begging for disruption.﻿"_ (in comments)

There have been 'disrupters' at work for many years now. I wish people
wouldn't assume that (a) this sort of market distortion hasn't been noticed
for years, (b) leveraged for almost as many, and (c) that there are actually
reasons why the market delivers these prices.

~~~
wmf
It is interesting to note that Brother and Kodak didn't even seem to put a
dent in the market leaders with their "rational" business model.

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rsiqueira
That's why I installed and use BULK INK refillable instead of the original
cartridges in all my printers. Costas are 97% less than original ink. This is
my printer with the external bulk ink: <http://bit.do/bulkink>

~~~
chmike
Did you do it yourself or can this be bought ?

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antidoh
One solution is to not print, except when absolutely necessary for
legal/financial events. Go to UPS or Staples to do the few printings per year
that you absolutely must do.

My printer hasn't printed for at least a year. The scanner still works, and
UPS/Staples is just down the street. Not for everyone, works for me. HP can
die in a fire.

------
Anechoic
A lot of folks point toward much-less expensive third party toner cartridges
and refill kits. I tried that route with my two Konica Minolta color laser
printers and had _horrible_ experience with cartridges/kits from several
vendors: toner leaking in the printer, streaks, squeaking, colors that were
off, etc.

YMMV but for know I'm sticking with OEM toner. And yes, the toner 4-pack is
more expensive than a new printer. So much so that when I used up the toner on
my printer I bought a new one since I wasn't all that satisfied with the
printer I had.

~~~
mturmon
Same here, with a recent HP color laser printer. It's not worth the hassle for
me to use the third-party cartridges.

~~~
SageRaven
I picked up a HP LaserJet 4000 for $10 at a thrift store a few years ago. $40
for some RAM, a NIC, new toner cart, and a duplexer and I've enjoyed one hell
of a great printer.

The 3rd party black toner carts have never given me issues. Is there something
different about color toner? Has the fact that my printer is 15 years old
allowed 3rd party toner/cart makers time to "get it right"? Or are new
printers just crap in comparison to older models?

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Geee
That's how it's been for years (always). Also, that's the reason why they put
authentication chips in those cartridges to try to stop you from refilling
them or putting in cheap alternatives. However, this doesn't stop the
counterfeiters and you can get the cartridges for tenth of the price.
[http://www.alibaba.com/product-
gs/569376994/CE400_1_2_3A_Las...](http://www.alibaba.com/product-
gs/569376994/CE400_1_2_3A_Laserjet_Color.html)

------
B-Scan
That's a "bait and hook" business model, just like Nespresso's:
<http://www.businessmodelinspiration.com/?p=55> and Gillette's:
[http://www.boardofinnovation.com/business-revenue-model-
exam...](http://www.boardofinnovation.com/business-revenue-model-
examples/bait-and-hook)

------
scorpion032
This. And try downloading a driver to run a HP printer and you will be forced
to download a 750 MB "HP Digital Solution" crapware.

Thats why I avoid HP printers.

~~~
sjwright
My favourite feature of Mac OS X is one ruthlessly stolen from Windows 98:
most contemporary printers will just "work" when you connect them up. No need
to install any drivers. And you don't just get a basic driver, you get a full-
featured driver that can operate all the printer's features, tell you the ink
levels, and not fill your computer up with garbage.

------
citricsquid
Hasn't it been long established that printers are a loss leader? I have a HP
printer that cost me peanuts and at every opportunity the printer pushes me to
purchase HP printer cartridges. Yes you can game the system but most people
don't understand that and it never crosses their mind because of how absurd it
is.

~~~
dangrossman
This isn't the case for consumer printers anymore, though. Ink isn't as
expensive as it once was (HP/Lexmark/Epson/Canon all have $10-15 black inkjet
cartridges), and printers don't ship with so much ink that it's cheaper to buy
the printer. It's the same with low-end laser printers too; a $99 Brother
comes with a 600 page cartridge, where a $50 replacement prints 2600 pages.

I guess the situation is different for business-grade stuff where the toner
costs $800 a pop.

------
chanux
<http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers>

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Natsu
I remember getting a new printer _and_ extra ink for less than a refill:

[http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/12/03/211250/what-do-you-
do...](http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/12/03/211250/what-do-you-do-when-
printers-cost-less-than-ink)

------
droithomme
The original printer claims it comes with 6000 page yield color cartridges but
a 5500 page yield starter cartridge for the black.

There are also 2000 page low yield color and 11000 page high yield black
cartridges available.

The replacement cartridges he is looking at are 6000 page yield for color and
11000 for black. So the black is twice the capacity of the original.

You can also find aftermarket compatible toner, the high yield version 10,000
black and 6,000 for each color, for $330 for a complete set of cartridges for
this machine - <http://www.lenscomputers.com/hp-m551-vp.html>.

------
DanBC
Some websites allow you to sort printers by price. They then list the
cartridges that you can use with those printers.

But some people would want to sort the carts by price, and then see the
printers that accept those carts. These people can't (for whatever reason) use
toner refills or third-party carts. (There is a complication with number of
sheets printer per cart, but that's easy enough to fix.)

And if you're a toner refill company some people will buy printers based on
how much they'll have to spend to get new toner, so listing your cheapest
print-per-page refill kit would be useful.

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cabirum
Epson went even further: <http://pryf.livejournal.com/1829152.html>

It's in Russian, but look at the pics: it's the same cartridges made in 2010,
2011 and 2012.

~~~
stalled
Epson is never mentioned in the linked blog post, it says those are HP ink
cartridges.

Also according to original story those are only from 2010 and 2012 + another
model added for comparison: HP 350/2010 _(left)_ , HP 350/2012 _(center)_ , HP
301/2012 _(right)_.

Original non-blogspam article in English:
[http://www.hpinkcartridges.co.uk/technology-
blog/2012/05/hp-...](http://www.hpinkcartridges.co.uk/technology-
blog/2012/05/hp-introduces-nano-sponge)

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Qz
You can get really cheap refill cartridges on Amazon. I paid maybe 8 bucks for
C Y M and x3 B. They're not 'official' but they work just fine, in my case
better even than the normal ones.

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adventureful
Is there a good reason why someone hasn't done a Dollar Shave Club business
model for printers + inks? I would think it would decimate the ink racket.

Granted, it may have been tried numerous times and failed due to the hardware
dominance the major printer players enjoy (and throwing out an existing
printer isn't the same as throwing out a razor from Gillette, so you have to
capture transitional customers). And of course hair grows fairly consistently,
whereas ink usage is less consistent - but offices can always stock back a
couple cartridges if they're not using enough and downgrade their account with
the click of a button until they burn through them.

~~~
brianbreslin
Easier to stock 3 blade types and 3 handles than 500 diff ink types. That only
obstacle I see. Also people don't buy ink so regularly I have no idea what
intervals I buy ink at

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webwanderings
I don't own a printer for home use and most likely never will.

