
The fungus that devastates the Cavendish banana has now arrived in Latin America - reddotX
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/banana-fungus-latin-america-threatening-future/
======
disillusioned
Fun banana facts:

Bananas are the most-sold item at most grocery stores and, notably, Wal-Mart.

Bananas also have the highest standard deviation in terms of predicting if a
given (known) consumer will purchase bananas in a given store run. (At least
as compared to other food products and consumables.) When predicting a
consumer's shop, it's generally pretty easy to make a highly educated guess
about their purchasing activity and, thus, to project volumes for products.
But bananas defy that wisdom, except that people in aggregate buy a lot of
them. Someone who buys bananas reliably every week for months will randomly
stop for months, and then start again, for no perceivable rhyme or reason.
Bananas aren't seasonal purchases like berries or corn or other fruits or
vegetables. Bananas also tend to be a high purchase at gas stations and
convenience stores.

Bananas have to be effectively "tricked" into continuing to ripen after being
prematurely picked and then refrigerated for transit. So there are banana
ripening centers that pump ethylene through a chilled chamber to get them to
ripen.

~~~
neiman
> Bananas are the most-sold item at most grocery stores and, notably, Wal-
> Mart.

In which country? The US? This can't be globally true..

~~~
apexalpha
I've heard this about Dutch stores as well. Supermarkets sell banana's at 0%
margin or even a loss simply because it lures customers in.

~~~
nimajneb
They have been 49 cents per pound in the grocery store in NY, both where I
grew and in WNY for as long as I can remember. They have got to be at a loss
if you consider they don't adjust for inflation or gas prices, etc. Milk does
this too if I'm not mistaken, a lot of grocery stores use that as a customer
lure as well.

------
sn41
Bananas are the prime cautionary tale against monoculture. The number of
native breeds which are now gone for the sake of promotion of one particular
breed leads to less resilience against disease and pests. Just in my corner of
India, there are various varieties. [1] However, in the U.S., the only variety
you often get to see is the insipid Cavendish, whose only merit seems to be
shelf-life.

If you travel in the tropics, do try out local varieties. It is an amazing
fruit (?).

[1] [http://mywordsnthoughts.com/myworld/all-about-
kerala/differe...](http://mywordsnthoughts.com/myworld/all-about-
kerala/different-types-of-banana-available-in-kerala/)

~~~
latchkey
I currently live in Vietnam, but was recently traveling around Laos by
motorbike. The bananas there are almost inedible... they taste awful. I found
it fascinating how different they were compared with Vietnamese bananas.

That said, I saw huge fields of farmed trees literally everywhere there (as
well as in VN). I don't think they are in any real danger of disappearing like
these articles say. It is very sensationalist news.

~~~
onion2k
_That said, I saw huge fields of farmed trees literally everywhere there (as
well as in VN). I don 't think they are in any real danger of disappearing
like these articles say. It is very sensationalist news._

"I can't see the problem with my own eyes so I don't think there's a problem."
is exactly the sort of thinking that leads to climate denial and anti-vaxx
nonsense. Unless you've spent a lot of time and effort understanding the
banana industry you simply aren't qualified to make that judgement.

~~~
latchkey
Wow, that is a stretch to loop my thinking in with both of those movements. I
am not even close to that nonsense.

Of course I'm no expert, but this whole banana disappearance story has been
going on for many years, yet we still have bananas. There is not even close to
a shortage of bananas. It reminds me of the Helium is running out stories.

Let me also remind you that the story is talking about a specific strain and
my comment was clearly not about that strain.

I could also say... unless you've driven 8500km all over Vietnam, Cambodia and
Laos and seen first hand the millions of banana trees, your thinking might be
constrained to some one sitting behind a keyboard.

~~~
onion2k
_There is not even close to a shortage of bananas._

IANABE (I am not a banana expert) but I know that no one suggested there is a
shortage right now. What's threatened is the world's supply of Cavendish
bananas which is what every Western country imports. Prior to that everyone
ate Gros Michel bananas, but practically all plantations growing that
particular crop were wiped out in the space of 30 years by Panama Disease.
Cavendish was the response - it _was_ Panama Disease resistant, but about 15
years ago the disease started attacking Cavendish crops. The concern is that
this means we're a decade or two away from losing Cavendish _and we don 't
have a suitable replacement_ (because, as people have said in this thread,
other bananas aren't as tasty to Western palettes).

To post "Nah, there's no problem" shows you don't quite understand that
problem, and to cite that you've seen a few big banana plantations as evidence
that the problem isn't a real one just compounds the issue.

If Panama Disease mutates to attack the plantations you saw they could _all_
be gone in a decade. That's how virulent the disease is. It _is_ a problem.

~~~
latchkey
> we don't have a suitable replacement

That is your opinion. I've been lucky enough to taste plenty of other banana
strains and there are definitely better banana's than Cavendish. The smaller
ones that you generally get in this region, that are really ugly on the
outside, taste so much better.

> you've seen a few big banana plantations

More than 'a few'... literally 3 whole countries worth. There is absolutely no
shortage of trees and farms. Just to give you an idea of how much I've seen
and I didn't even tag all of it...
[https://imgur.com/a/olSoTXe](https://imgur.com/a/olSoTXe)

I'm not saying that this disease isn't a problem, but I have hard time
believing it is a catastrophic problem for all bananas.

If you're going to go into big problems, I'd say that African Swine flu is a
much larger issue for this region. I drove through countless 'checkpoints' all
over northern VN/Laos where they sprayed down my motorbike wheels with some
unknown chemicals. There are literally signs everywhere talking about the
issue. Millions of swine have been slaughtered. Usually you see pigs running
around freely on the roads, but once you get to a certain point in northern
vn, you stop seeing them entirely.

~~~
onion2k
_That is your opinion._

It's not my opinion. It's the opinion of every banana industry analyst who
says losing the Cavendish would be the end of the banana export industry,
which is pretty much all of them. There's a reason why we get articles
catastrophising about the impact of Panama Disease posted to HN on a semi-
regular basis.

~~~
latchkey
> It's the opinion of every banana industry analyst who says losing the
> Cavendish would be the end of the banana export industry, which is pretty
> much all of them.

What a great title for a business card. Of course they have every motivation
to say that the sky is falling. It attracts attention, doesn't it?

> There's a reason why we get articles catastrophising about the impact of
> Panama Disease posted to HN on a semi-regular basis.

I'm sure there is a reason, but it may not be what you think it is.

------
anfilt
I find it weird that people would not like other variety of bananas. Like
there are generally more than one type of apples, potatoes, onions, tomotoes,
and lettuce at most grocery stores.

I would like the choice.

~~~
burfog
With most of those, each type has a distinct use.

Granny Smith apples are for baking, McIntosh apples are for eating fresh, Red
Delicious apples are for decoration, and the rest serve no purpose.

Russet potatoes are for baking, stew, and fries. Purple potatoes are for
frying up with steak. The rest serve no purpose.

It's different with bananas. Cavendish is good. Maybe the Gros Michel is good
too, but I wouldn't know. The rest are variations of sour, mushy, slimy, and
too tiny. It's also a problem of telling when a banana is ripe. It is easy to
memorize exactly how a single variety of banana ripens. If there are more
varieties, they get mixed up and eaten at the wrong time.

~~~
jmull
I can assure you, you are very wrong about the uses of other varieties of
Apples and Potatoes. You're also wrong about russet potatoes for stew -- other
varieties work out a lot better when you want your potatoes to hold their
shape.

(I would assume likewise with bananas as well, but I don't have the experience
to know myself.)

It's OK -- maybe you don't have the most acute tastebuds or just lack a
culinary interest. It's even pretty much dead wrong to think about these
things in terms of uses. Food can be a delight and an art, and proscribed
"use" doesn't allow for that.

Anyway: if you haven't tried it in a while, branch out. You might really enjoy
and appreciate what you've been missing out on.

~~~
burfog
I do have a strong culinary interest, but I'm also choosy. I try lots of
things to discover what is best, and then I use what is best.

Russet potatoes are the best for stew. The others have off flavors or don't
soften as nicely.

I have tried many types of cheese. I eliminated all except mozzarella and mild
cheddar.

I have tried every exotic fruit in the store except durian. I ended up liking
jackfruit, dragonfruit, rambutan, lychee, longan, and loquat.

The point of trying new foods is to find the best, not to pretend that they
are all equally delicious.

------
ksherlock
And has been since every 6 months since 2008. Probably even before then, but
hn.alogolia.com doesn't go back further.

~~~
dang
There's always money in the banana story.

------
tux1968
These sentences seemed at odds with one another:

> Banana agriculture is itself partly to blame for the potential of the fungus
> to spread. Commercial plantations grow almost exclusively one clonal
> variety, called the Cavendish; these plants’ identical genetics mean they
> are also identically susceptible to disease.

and then very shortly after saying:

> ... residents of banana-producing nations rely on a multitude of local
> varieties, including plantains, for their food security. Panama disease TR4
> has a notoriously broad host range, meaning it threatens nearly all of these
> varieties to some degree.

~~~
ggm
I don't see these in conflict. commercially exported banana is based on clonal
reproduction and is therefore _highly_ exposed to risk of a disease. All
banana varieties (to some extent) have risk, the locally _consumed_ varieties
are not always Cavendish, or LadyFinger but include more rich varieties which
may or may not be clonally sourced, but do include seeded bananas and plantain
varieties, but also have the risk: its just commercial agriculture has driven
to a very very high risk of consequence.

------
brink
There's a GMO variety of the Cavendish that is resistant to the Panama
Disease.

[https://www.accessscience.com/content/genetic-engineering-
of...](https://www.accessscience.com/content/genetic-engineering-of-bananas-
to-combat-panama-disease/BR1208171)

~~~
autokad
I want to have GMO big mikes =(

~~~
Aloha
I've always wanted to try a Big Mike

~~~
slavik81
Atlas Obscura had an article in which they ordered a box of Big Mikes from the
Miami Fruit Company. It's a little on the pricy side to ship boxes of boutique
fruits across the country, but they have quite an interesting selection.

If I was in your shoes, I might wait for Big Mikes to be in season, then order
the banana variety pack[1] (and ask that they include a Big Mike). You could
pre-order a large box (10-14lbs) of Big Mikes[2], but that seems like a lot to
buy at once.

I've never heard of these folks before today, but now I kind of want to throw
a fruit tasting party.

[1]: [https://miamifruit.org/collections/fresh-and-
dried/products/...](https://miamifruit.org/collections/fresh-and-
dried/products/banana-variety-box) [2]:
[https://miamifruit.org/collections/banana-pre-
orders/product...](https://miamifruit.org/collections/banana-pre-
orders/products/gros-michel-banana-box-pre-order)

~~~
deadmetheny
I regularly order fruit from these guys and can attest that it's all very good
quality. The banana sampler in particular is one of the few ways I can
actually get a good variety of bananas outside of being on holiday.

------
jedberg
> Other scientists—most notably, James Dale of the Queensland University of
> Technology in Australia—are testing genetically modified disease-resistant
> Cavendish bananas, but public acceptance of GMOs could prove a significant
> obstacle to their widespread adoption.

This is the problem right here. The lack of science education. A banana
modified in a lab and one that is bred through selective breeding are both
"GMO", it's just that one is done in a targeted manner and the other relies on
random luck in the mutations.

If people weren't so afraid of science this problem would already be solved.

The two main producers refuse to even consider the "GMO" bananas because they
are afraid they won't sell. If they would just take up the cause, they could
put enough money behind this to solve the problem in a year.

~~~
icxa
I'm pretty up to date on the science myself, and I still consider myself anti-
GMO for a host of reasons, little to do with the science. My objections are
more philosophical.

two primary reasons: hubris and greed.

The hubris to think we know which varietals are the best and will continue to
be the best. We may go all in on one species or variant and then turns out an
unknown bacteria we have previously no clue about wipes out all of them. You
never know, you _need_ variety. Bacteria outnumber us all.

number two: greed. You worried about tech being consolidated into the big 5?
how about this scientific research? you want our _food_ , something we
_actually_ depend on, to be consolidated into 2-3 chemical companies? I don't.

Smaller reasons include: the power of being able to still survive on pure
nature's means, and the freedom to do so. We don't realize it, but these
things we do out here in the more advanced nations greatly impact the
developing world, where a large portion of the world's population exists.

~~~
roywiggins
> The hubris to think we know which varietals are the best and will continue
> to be the best.

If they don't grow GMO Cavendish, they will pick some other variety and grow
_that_ everywhere, like they did after the Gros Michel went under. GMO doesn't
seem to be a prerequisite for monoculture at all.

> the power of being able to still survive on pure nature's means

We haven't been able to do that since the dawn of agriculture. If modern
agriculture disappeared tomorrow, the Cavendish plantations would not resemble
Cavendish plantations very long, Panama disease or not.

The only problem I have with a "GMO Cavendish" is that it would likely be
patented, which could create a company with some _extraordinarily_ powerful
IP, which is very dangerous. But that's a problem with the law, not GMOs per
se.

~~~
xbmcuser
Many of us that are considered anti gmo are more anti patent for food genes
rather than of anti gmo. The developing world mostly has agricultural economy
now Western companies are trying to horn in that as well. A few years ago an
American company tried to patent and stop Pakistan and India from selling a
rice variety called Basmati by modifing it genes and trying to patent it. When
its come to gmo the trust deficit in rest of the world is not just about the
science but of the western companies and their patents.

~~~
yoube
Then don't call yourselves anti-GMO?

~~~
xbmcuser
I didn't say we were anti-gmo rather we are labeled as anti-gmo despite our
reservations being about the patenting systems rather than the science.

------
acd
Cavendish banana are monoculture clones from the same original banana. That
means that any disease that attacks one can attack all since the banana share
the same dna and protective mechanism.

The solution is not to clone with the same dna. also not to use pesticides
which kills bees and insects. Pesticide will not only kill bugs they will kill
all insects a like.

“Cavendish bananas were named after William Cavendish, 6th Duke of Devonshire.
Though they were not the first known banana specimens in Europe, in around
1834 Cavendish received a shipment of bananas (from Mauritius) courtesy of the
chaplain of Alton Towers (then the seat of the Earls of Shrewsbury).” Source
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_banana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_banana)

~~~
primroot
Or get people to eat local as much as possible. The only people at risk from
being more malnourished due to a scarcity of Cavendish bananas are those whose
land has been plagued by the monoculture.

And by the way [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/monkeys-
bann...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/monkeys-banned-from-
eating-bananas-at-devon-zoo-9058856.html) [Monkeys banned from eating bananas
at Devon zoo]. I assume those were all Cavendish bananas.

------
axaxs
So, my wife is from SEA. I never bothered to look into the name of their
bananas, nor do they know it by any other name, but they are delicious. They
are small, and grow more in a straight line than a bunch. While a Cavendish is
mostly subtle, these taste like real fruit, more hearty and definitely sweet.
So, my question is, why are we in USA stuck with these dud bananas, even in
the absence of the Gros Michel?

------
PopeDotNinja
A short, recent discussion I posted on /r/AskScienceDiscussion...

"If Cavendish/dessert bananas get wiped out by some disease (e.g. Panama
disease), how long would it take to cultivate a new dessert banana from wild
growing options?"

[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceDiscussion/comments/c75ct...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceDiscussion/comments/c75ctk/if_cavendishdessert_bananas_get_wiped_out_by_some/)

P.S. For the casually curious, /r/AskScienceDiscussion is a more forgiving,
less strict place to ask questions than /r//r/AskScience. It's more ask Bill
Nye in a podcast than pose a perfect question to pass the scientist mod
filter.

------
ralusek
> Desperate, the predecessors of Chiquita and Dole switched production [from
> the Gros Michel] to a banana they knew to be resistant to Panama disease,
> despite its relatively bland flavor: the now-ubiquitous Cavendish.

I want to try the Gros Michel. What I'm eating is relatively bland?

~~~
andrewla
It might be urban legend, but apparently banana-flavored candy imitates the
flavor of the Gros Michel, which is why it doesn’t really taste like a
“banana” as we know it.

------
caymanjim
Since it's inevitable that the current bananas will collapse from this, maybe
it'll speed acceptance of GMO products. People will ignore their unfounded
fears once it starts affecting them.

~~~
spraak
People are already comfortable and used to other cultivars of other fruits.
GMO isn't even necessary here, just other types of bananas.

~~~
caymanjim
From the article:

> Besides the Cavendish bananas that dominate modern supermarket shelves,
> residents of banana-producing nations rely on a multitude of local
> varieties, including plantains, for their food security. Panama disease TR4
> has a notoriously broad host range, meaning it threatens nearly all of these
> varieties to some degree.

Unfortunately, pretty much all banana species are vulnerable. Even if
Cavendish is the most-affected, replacing Cavendish with another cultivar
isn't a complete solution. Other banana cultivars don't have the same
properties, and breeding a replacement dessert banana that is resistant, and
then spreading that cultivar (and hoping that it too doesn't fall prey) is not
a trivial undertaking.

If a GMO solution can save the existing cultivars, which have established
consumers, it's a better approach. Since all bananas are grown using
monoculture grafting (because we long ago bred the seeds out), it's not as
easy to produce new cultivars as with other fruits.

------
ArmandGrillet
Related to the topic, I highly recommend this short documentary about the
Cavendish banana and the deadly fungus affecting it:
[https://youtu.be/YkI3zkQ4WBo](https://youtu.be/YkI3zkQ4WBo)

------
jjeaff
Is the worry that they will just go away overnight all at once, but it just
hasn't happened yet? Because the current price of bananas sure doesn't
indicate a shortage.

------
thelittleone
Bananas are an important staple with many potential uses. A guy in Bali came
up with a process that makes flour from green bananas. The resulting bread
products are delicious. Far better than regular gluten free bread and better
than regular bread for toast (amazing crispiness). Lots of cafes are using
this bread to satisfy the ever growing hippie tourism trade.

------
carapace
Coffee is also having some problems:
[https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2013/0605/Coffee-
bl...](https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2013/0605/Coffee-blight-in-
Central-America-Changing-livelihoods-and-your-cup-of-joe)

------
quickthrower2
"The banana is one step closer to disappearing" \- seems to be overstating it.
They mean the Cavendish Banana and therefore large scale Banana cultivation.
However we could still have a variety of bananas, lower scale and have banana
be more of a treat than a common food.

~~~
onetimemanytime
>> _However we could still have a variety of bananas, lower scale and have
banana be more of a treat than a common food._

Those that could afford the $XX / lbs price would.

~~~
quickthrower2
It wouldn't be the only food like this, and nutritionally I think people can
survive without bananas.

I'd miss em though. Nothing like frozen banana + milk blended.

------
blondie9x
What’s most scary is this. If the food can still be produced in a climate we
have injured, will it even be nutritious? The answer is unfortunately no in
most cases. Over farming leads to soil being turned over too much and plants
that do not produce fruits and vegetables with vitamins. Another bad finding
is high atmospheric carbon levels drive rice malnutrition. If rice then what
else? And now a worsening climate is leading to plant extinction also. This is
double bad news.

~~~
helkafen
At least the soil issues can be fixed through regenerative practices, which
also help mitigate climate change to some extent. Farmers should receive
funding to safely transition to better practices.

------
winrid
Fun fact - bananas are berries.

~~~
IvyMike
Strange times for Berry Club.
[https://www.mrlovenstein.com/comic/643](https://www.mrlovenstein.com/comic/643)

------
lukejduncan
Can anyone recommend a good book to learn more about the GMO debate?

------
ptah
would it help if banana plantations were not monocultures? would it stop the
spread if other trees were in between

------
ptah
interesting video illustrating how corporations control US military action

------
cryptozeus
I guess there is always banana nut bread !

------
jesse_m
how will we express the scale of something now?

------
JackFr
> the _epicenter_ of the global banana export industry

Sigh.

------
lioeters
"Yes! We Have No Bananas"

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas)

~~~
carapace
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel_banana)

> This variety was once the dominant export banana to Europe and North
> America, grown in Central America, but in the 1950s, Panama disease, a wilt
> caused by the fungus Fusarium oxysporum f.sp. cubense, wiped out vast tracts
> of Gros Michel plantations in Central America, though it is still grown on
> non-infected land throughout the region.

The song is from 1923, so likely no connection to the great banana blight, eh?
Too bad, I thought so too.

~~~
lioeters
I believe you're right, the song predates any widespread fungus issue with
bananas. Would have been cool if the lyrics had been a satire / poke at the
situation.

I did find the following note about the song:

> In 2008, The New York Times ran an op-ed, with the title "Yes, We Will have
> no Bananas", regarding the outcome of fungal diseases afflicting the
> Cavendish Banana

[https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/opinion/18koeppel.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/opinion/18koeppel.html)

So we weren't the first to make the pun/connection - great minds think alike?
:) I deserved the downvotes though, I knew it when I posted the flippant
comment.

