
Do Grades Matter? A Discussion About Thinking Bigger While at CMU (2016) [pdf] - senatorobama
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~kayvonf/misc/do_grades_matter.pdf
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CryoLogic
Some of the smartest, most successful and most driven people I know are
highschool dropouts. It's a shame we put such an emphasis on grades, which
really just reflect someone's ability to spit out things that have already
been figured out - not any proof of ingenuity, curiosity, or the ability to
learn on the fly.

(before the replies - yes I know a lot of dropouts without any ambition or
discipline as well - but living in a highly educated community it's easy to
note many of the "educated" people really lack ambition and ingenuity
whatsoever.)

On an anecdotal note, I dropped out of high-school got a job in tech and went
back to college - I went to a top 10 university (graduated) and didn't learn
much I couldn't have taught myself. It did help me get more interviews though.

~~~
dahart
> before the replies - yes I know a lot of dropouts without any ambition or
> discipline as well - but living in a highly educated community it's easy to
> note many of the "educated" people really lack ambition and ingenuity
> whatsoever.

I don't think the argument normally has anything to do with how much ambition
& ingenuity college educated people have. Looking at college educated people
with low ambition isn't a great reason to drop out of school.

The issue is that, statistically, college degrees are strongly correlated with
better outcomes. There's a variety of reasons, and of course it does not mean
that every dropout will do worse.

Most people who drop out don't drop for a positive, because they're doing
something better. They drop out for a negative, because they don't like school
or authority or it's too hard or they're uninterested or drugs or poverty,
etc.. If you're giving advice to someone who doesn't know what to do, going to
college and doing well there is hands down the better recommendation on
average for most people.

If they're driven and strong enough to drop out because they're learning
faster on their own, or have something more important to do, or see the
potential to make more money now, then they're probably going to ignore advice
anyway. The strong driven successful people who don't need a college degree
also don't need the advice or any emphasis on grades, because they know what
they want, and they've found their own metrics. Everyone else, most people,
will probably benefit by staying in school longer.

[http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-
of...](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-
to-college/)

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sotojuan
This slideshow points at some key problems high achieving people face post-
high school - how to stand out when everyone's as smart/hard working as you
when all you know is getting good grades?

I knew a lot of people who double majored (even attempted to triple major...)
and filled up their schedule so much that (apologies if this sounds a bit
rude) they had an "empty" life outside of classes. This actually hurt people
in the CS job search (not a problem for CMU grads though). The ones found a
job easily are doing the same things as me, a lifelong B+/A- student. Of
course, this is anecdotal and all, and who knows where we'll be in ten years,
but I always wondered if all the stress and lack of free time during ages
18-22 was worth it.

I know a lot of careers demand a ton of your time in undergrad for grades,
extracurriculars, preparing for grad school, etc. I'm glad programming
interviews focused more on practical skills and problem solving skills - my
undergrad was a lot less stressful and more fun that way and I was able to
explore and mess around with technology and life in general.

------
z1mm32m4n
> _You have to struggle /agonize over it. You have to immerse yourself in it.
> You have to think about it all the time._

We see these ideas echoed over and over by intensely successful people. For
example, it's the same one Richard Hamming claims in his famous talk, "You and
Your Research"[1]. Kayvon's talk focuses heavily on the side of academia, but
the claim holds equally well in two other areas:

1\. Community involvement.

As an undergrad, over-commitment to classes leaves little time to give back to
the "community," for definitions of community like classmates, under-
represented groups, the wider campus, etc.

For example, you can't be a great undergrad TA if you don't put close to or
more work into the class than your students do. This means TA'ing should
factor into your schedule like taking another class. If you're already
overloaded on classes and TA'ing a class, how can you hope to contribute
something valuable to your students?

2\. Self-driven deeper understanding.

In all these discussions, we're starting from the assumption that the student
is driven; otherwise, they wouldn't be motivated to take tons of classes in
the first place.

By taking fewer classes, there's more available time for the _motivated_
student to read an interesting paper related to the lecture that week--and
read it _thoroughly_. There's more time to think critically about interesting,
new problems, and even to discover one's own passions or calling.

As one last note; if you're a student ever in the position to take a class
from Kayvon, I'd very strongly recommend it.

[1]:
[http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html](http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html)

~~~
oddity
Kayvon was my undergraduate thesis advisor as well as an instructor for a
class I took while there, and it's hard to exaggerate how fantastic he was. I
second your recommendation.

~~~
aerioux
hehe hi :^) isn't this the slide show kayvon showed us at the research
symposium?

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Powerofmene
IMO high grades are simply an indication of the ability to meet the
expectations of either the Professor or the parents if they are paying tuition
or even to yourself if that is how you measure success. Grades are not
typically an indication of mastery of the subject matter because that comes
with application of that which was learned rather than a recitation of that
which was taught. Low grades, well they are a horse of a different color
altogether.

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Upvoter33
one problem w/ cmu education: it burns a lot of people out. I've known many a
bright folk to go in flying high and come out just wanting to find something
more relaxing to do. simply put: it's not for everyone. of course, many other
top schools are the same way...

~~~
sotojuan
I think the point of the slides (and college in general) is that you don't
necessarily have to stress out yourself to be an all As student with a double
major to get a good job. Instead, relax a bit more and build software.

~~~
David
Really? I didn't see that in the slides. I saw "trade classes or grades for
other stuff (but still work to or past your limit)" specifically with the
references to not sleeping. As a CMU alum that both hit home and depressed me.
I can't, and don't want, to do that kind of shit anymore. Why are we
encouraging our undergrads to work to the point of harm in order to excel?
Excellence can happen without all nighters, and it's more sustainable that
way.

In essence, I agree with you but I don't think the slides do.

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sjg007
The reason to go to university is to work with and learn from the best and
smartest people in an area you enjoy. There is a ton of opportunity and you
just have to take advantage. It is also a great time to figure out yourself,
what you want and only have to answer to yourself.

I do think colleges should offer a 101 course where you get to work on
establishing healthy habits and provide an understanding of mental health
etc...

