

How to say nothing in 500 words - irahul
http://web.archive.org/web/20101124040620/http://www.apostate.com/how-say-nothing-500-words

======
Cyranix
If I ever go back to language teaching, I think I've just come up with an
engaging and rewarding lesson:

    
    
      * assign students the task of writing an N-word or -page paper and explicitly instruct them to use as much fluff as possible (creatively, i.e. not using "really" x100)
      * allow them to read each other's papers and vote on the most vapid essays
      * assign a follow-up task to ruthlessly edit a partner's paper to distill the real content
      * never attach a word or page count to any future assignment, preferring complete coverage of assigned topic, and hold students accountable for use of fluff
    

Hands-on experience is a great learning aid. A frank acknowledgement and
analysis of filler content (instead of just discouraging it in the abstract)
coupled with an educator's willingness to forgo artificial targets or limits
could go a long way in improving this aspect of writing style.

~~~
Ralith
It will be neither engaging nor rewarding for the person publicly voted "most
vapid."

~~~
scott_s
I don't see a problem with it: being vapid is the stated purpose of the
exercise. Cyranix did not propose blindsiding the students with this exercise
by applying this criteria to essays the students wrote in earnest.

~~~
Ralith
Oh, I see that I missed that. That's a pretty good idea, then!

------
samdk
This advice, as with much other good advice, should be taken and understood in
context. It is an essay about how to write a good essay, and there are times
when you want to break some of these rules.

As one example, expressions like "I think that" and "in my opinion" can be
useful if used purposefully. When reading an argument, we have a tendency to
fixate on the points that we take issue with personally. By saying "I think X
is true" instead of just "X is true", you make it easier for someone to
disagree with your specific point rather than your entire argument. In some
contexts (like HN comments), this can help to reduce animosity and get much
more of your point across to people who don't fully agree with you.

~~~
scott_s
I use "I think" it to distinguish widely agreed upon facts from my own
conclusions.

~~~
msellout
You're giving too much credit to things that people widely agree on.

Going by majority vote, intelligent design is a fact.

~~~
AsylumWarden
I believe the concept of majority rules has worked well for America. Some
would disagree of course but then they are just the minority.

------
latortuga
This article reminded me of "Thank You For Smoking" where the young kid asks
his dad what he should write about on the topic of "Why is the American
government the best government in the world". Aaron Eckhart's character ends
up explaining that the question is ridiculous because it carries implicit
assumptions (America is the best government in the world, 'best' can somehow
be measured) without explaining them. He follows that with an explanation that
this is basically an invitation to write whatever you want - write about
tariffs, write about executing felons, write about our appeal system. It's not
about the question, it's about the writing.

------
irahul
Hey folks. There is currently a flame war going on about using grammar as
litmus test for hiring. I thought it's a good time to re-post this.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1904584>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1008246>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=239147>

Sorry about the archive link. The original post is gone.

~~~
corkeh
Original post is here: <http://apostate.com/how-to-say-nothing-in-500-words>

Looks like the URLs changed when they switched from Drupal to Wordpress.

------
wccrawford
I guess I had really good English teachers, then, because I never worried
about using unique arguments. I simply wrote the most obvious thoughts on the
subject and called it a day. And I always got good grades.

However, I did follow a lot of advice from the post without knowing it, other
than the 'don't be obvious' bit. For instance, I didn't use a lot of filler
words. I simply wrote out my ideas, explained them, and then opened and closed
it with a summary paragraph, as we were taught repeatedly. 5-3-5 and all that.
It never failed to get a good grade.

If I was short of my 500 (or however many) words, I didn't start adding
useless words. I added more content. Obviously it wasn't a good argument if I
didn't say enough to meet that requirement yet. However, I think this only
happened a few times. I was more likely to go over the maximum number instead,
if there was one.

College's basic courses were simple if you knew the rules and followed them. I
found out later that they were harder for others because they didn't know the
rules, like the 5-3-5 pattern. Everyone that I have introduced that to has
loved it and it helped them tremendously. Why isn't that taught everywhere? It
seems awful obvious in retrospect.

~~~
UnFleshedOne
I went through hight school and university without using that pattern (not
that I wrote many essays, and when I did I made a point of writing against the
topic) and was only introduced to it in ESL class I took after immigrating to
canada. I'm not a very creative person -- I rather like rigid structures and
perfect formatting of my code -- but I hated this immediately. It is probably
just me, but somehow the idea of making an "essay" according to the rules of
making essays as defined just highlights the utter pointlessness of the
process and saps all energy and dispels any delusions about making meaningful
arguments I might have had...

~~~
psykotic
My wife is going through an intensive one-year college ESL course with an
emphasis on writing. This was my first encounter with the rigid structure of
American college essays. Initially I found it silly and counterproductive, but
I have since softened my stance. My wife, despite having a degree from a top
university in her country, had hardly any practice writing essays even in her
native language. Because of that, she has had her hands full just worrying
about her ideas and how to express them in correct and idiomatic English, so
the fixed structure has been invaluable for her--it helps organize her
thoughts and removes one whole class of tricky decisions from the writing
process.

Think of it as training wheels. Once you don't need the formal structure
anymore, you can and probably should stop using it.

------
gmac
This is fine as far as it goes, but -- ironically, given its subject -- I
found it a little vapid. Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" is my
preferred commentary on English writing style:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272608>

~~~
pizza
I love his 'all writing is political' idea. On many occasions have I asked
myself "Why am I writing this?" and surprised myself with my answer.

------
bicknergseng
I'd like all newspaper editors to read Mr. Roberts' article.

I've been working on blogging for a while. Mostly thinking about it, some
writing, no publishing to the internet. I would draw a line from undertones in
this article to my hesitancy to hit the "post" button.

At the risk of sounding ignorant, arrogant, or both, I'm going to make
sweeping generalities. The problem as I see it is that most low hanging blog
topic fruit falls under the category of "Obvious Content." If you're writing
about hiring, as HN articles are wont, I promise you someone has written the
same point argued the same way before. I could head up the same topic from the
"Less Usual Side," but I have no personal interest in playing devil's advocate
and choosing to argue for something I don't believe to be true. There's a
place for that, and I'm not arguing that original thought can come out of
debate or rebuttal. Unless you're publishing some kind of original research,
what I have to say has probably been said already more eloquently than I could
say it myself. I'm afraid I would simply be adding to the noise.

My interesting HN social experiment of the day: I would like to challenge
every one to only post truly original thought. I suppose posting a unique
argument to an existing topic is OK, but I'd shoot for completely untouched
topics to expand the reaches of our collective thinking.

~~~
primatology
I claim there is no original thought. We're too shaped by our experiences.

I think you'll find most "original thoughts" are a) reversals of commonly
accepted arguments for the sake of being contrary or b) bad ideas. Hence why
most of us tend to held unoriginal thoughts—because the common beliefs are
[often] the least-bad. Only occasionally does someone strike gold.

Then again, increasing the attempts at original thoughts should increase the
quantity of good original thoughts, if not the proportion. I'm rather
intrigued.

~~~
bicknergseng
Cue Inception music.

------
brittohalloran
There are some really good gems in there:

"Decide what you want to say and say it as vigorously as possible, without
apology and in plain words."

------
sp332
_If these are the points that leap to your mind, they will leap to everyone
else's too, and whether you get a "C" or a "D" may depend on whether the
instructor reads your paper early when he is fresh and tolerant or late_

I don't think this is true. If a teacher asks 100 students for a paper on an
assigned topic, they're not looking for originality. They just want to see if
you can write or not. I always had felt that I should write something original
and was worried constantly that I was re-hashing an idea the teacher had
already seen dozens of times. But then I asked several teachers about it and
they said they weren't looking for originality. After all you can't expect
thousands of students of the same age in the same class at the same school
with the same teacher to think very differently from one another.

~~~
nocipher
Of course they aren't looking for originality. It can't be expected. When you
give students a really difficult test, you don't expect everyone to make an
"A". You expect some to fail ("D") and many to be just average ("C"). Some
select few, however, will defy the norm and manage an "A".

The situation with assigned writing is the same. Some will elegantly write
many droll, boring statements and back them up with some personal anecdotes or
stories they came across while doing research. Those will stand out against
the poorly written droll, boring statements. They'll get higher scores.

The few that break the mold and do something completely unexpected will
definitely stand out. If they can back up their originality with half decent
ability, they'll stand out even more than the "standard excellence". Those
people will definitely get an A.

The conclusion is sound. If you beat the expectations people have of you, good
things will likely happen.

------
pizza
Just read Strunk and White's _Elements of Style_.

~~~
hkmurakami
Just discovered that this is available free of charge on Kindle [1].

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/The-Elements-of-Style-
ebook/dp/B005IT0...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Elements-of-Style-
ebook/dp/B005IT0V8O/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-
text&ie=UTF8&qid=1342806430&sr=1-1&keywords=elements+of+style)

~~~
Simucal
That isn't Strunk and White. That is just Strunk and is an earlier edition of
the work long before White came on.

~~~
decklin
And in case anyone is not familiar with just how long "long before" was:
[http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001604.h...](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001604.html)

~~~
hkmurakami
Thanks for the corrections!

------
ctdonath
"All subjects, except sex, are dull until somebody makes them interesting."

I respectfully submit Monty Python's _The Meaning of Life_.

------
moron
This strikes me as good advice, but it also matches a lot of the advice I have
gleaned over the years, so it may just be my bias talking. Getting rid of
mush-mouthed "in my opinion" stuff and cliche phrases, moving from the general
to the specific, all good advice.

