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Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by -Ken-

Just because a player have tons of move doesn't make them better. Kenya lose to Shiraishi 7-4 when 4 counter Fuji got whoop 5-0 and 40-0. Kikumaru was never near Fuji. And yes, I'm saying Kenya is better than 4 counter Fuji.

It was 7-3 Ken. 7-3.
In case you forgot, Fuji then handed Shiraishi a 6-0 whooping straight afterwards as they went into tie-break.
Honestly, I don't know how Kenya would do against 4thCounter. Kenya's Tech isn't so great. Considering the likes of Hirakoba has the exact same Tech as Kenya and he was astounded by it.
Kikumaru VS Kenya really isn't the sort of match where someone is going to get their ass-kicked at all. Like... At all. Kenya's attacking let's him down here.

Originally Posted by -Ken-

He didn't beat GP "fair and square". He hit Kikumaru in the head. And also have to resort to switching player and not having the player hit the ball be same with the judge announcement in order to have Kikumaru eye getting use to a wrong laser speed.

The blow to the head wasn't mentioned to have affected Kikumaru through the entire game iirc.
Things like that are just Doubles tactics in PoT... As weird a tactic as it was. Doubles tactics are what makes a pair superior to other pairs.

Originally Posted by -Ken-

And Yagyuu beating Niou without illusion doesn't mean anything. No Illusion Niou was getting crap by Fuji so much that the only thing you can tell about him is that he's a horrible player wiithout illusion. Niou's only strong with Illusion.

But that same Fuji that took out Niou 4-0, is the SAME Fuji that destroyed Shiraishi for 6 straight games? So HOW does that make Niou bad?
That same 5thCounter Fuji will slaughter the likes of Kaidoh etc.

Originally Posted by -Ken-

Kenya beating Niou? No, but I can see him beating Yagyuu.

With what? Just his Speed? Lol.
Its such an open match between the two its just hard to say who will definitely win.
What I am telling you though is that this series isn't all about stats in this series.

Yagyuu has simply a superior Mental and Tech to Kenya all that lets Yagyuu down is Speed.
Which doesn't matter much in Doubles.

Why you think Yagyuu is underrated still makes no sense.
But to think Kenya in your eyes is some guy able to slaughter him and Kikumaru, that's a bit off.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

It was 7-3 Ken. 7-3.
In case you forgot, Fuji then handed Shiraishi a 6-0 whooping straight afterwards as they went into tie-break.
Honestly, I don't know how Kenya would do against 4thCounter. Kenya's Tech isn't so great. Considering the likes of Hirakoba has the exact same Tech as Kenya and he was astounded by it.
Kikumaru VS Kenya really isn't the sort of match where someone is going to get their ass-kicked at all. Like... At all. Kenya's attacking let's him down here.

Then Shiraishi go back and win. So what? What would 4th counter do against anything Kenya have? He doesn't have a big special shot. And yeah, point still made. If one score a point and 4th counter Fuji can't score a single one, the one who score point is stronger. 5th counter Fuji is in another league, and not the one I talk about. 4 counter Fuji is still Seigaku #2, above Kikumaru.

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

But that same Fuji that took out Niou 4-0, is the SAME Fuji that destroyed Shiraishi for 6 straight games? So HOW does that make Niou bad?
That same 5thCounter Fuji will slaughter the likes of Kaidoh etc.

It does shows that Niou is not really in the same tier as that Fuji without Illusion. And that same Fuji that crush Shiraishi actually end up losing the match. And considering that Kaidoh combo is shown to work against Renji, whom I am 100% sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Niou without Illusion, that should say something.

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

With what? Just his Speed? Lol.
Its such an open match between the two its just hard to say who will definitely win.
What I am telling you though is that this series isn't all about stats in this series.

Yagyuu has simply a superior Mental and Tech to Kenya all that lets Yagyuu down is Speed.
Which doesn't matter much in Doubles.

I got page that point out the weakness of Yagyuu laser combo to Kaidoh, and all you got is just saying it'll work. Really, like, wow.

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

Why you think Yagyuu is underrated still makes no sense.
But to think Kenya in your eyes is some guy able to slaughter him and Kikumaru, that's a bit off.

He's a guy that is shown only able to beat Kikumaru and Oishi whom are both low tier player and still almost lost. He also almost lost to Niou that doesn't shown Illusion. Really, that's not that impressive of a track record. Kenya won't slaughter Yagyuu. It'll be a fairly close match that I think Kenya will come up top 7-5 or 6-4, due to how Kenya style is good for sealing laser. Kenya will probably slaughter Kikumaru, though.

Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by -Ken-

I got page that point out the weakness of Yagyuu laser combo to Kaidoh, and all you got is just saying it'll work. Really, like, wow.

And that page was bs Ken. It was far from concrete Ken. That's the issue. Only you felt Kaidoh's was truly superior.
Even though Niou who knows Laserbeam inside out was helpless against it, you still believe Kenya will shit on it.
"Really, like, wow" is my line here.

Did you even read the damn post. I've brought out the stat breakdown. Kenya only has Speed in this situation. Like... That is his only advantage here.
Kenya has the worst Mental and Technique out of the 4 of them. Joint lowest Tech with Shiraishi when compared with Yagyuu/Niou.
Speed alone can never win you a match in PoT in Singles iirc.
Even Kamio needed to bring out Sonic Bullet for instance.

Originally Posted by -Ken-

He's a guy that is shown only able to beat Kikumaru and Oishi whom are both low tier player and still almost lost. He also almost lost to Niou that doesn't shown Illusion. Really, that's not that impressive of a track record. Kenya won't slaughter Yagyuu. It'll be a fairly close match that I think Kenya will come up top 7-5 or 6-4, due to how Kenya style is good for sealing laser. Kenya will probably slaughter Kikumaru, though.

Lol, Kenya is guy that has achieved what? 3 points off of Shiraishi?
How did Yagyuu "almost lose"? Laserbeam was never returned properly lol.

Originally Posted by -Ken-

Then Shiraishi go back and win. So what? What would 4th counter do against anything Kenya have? He doesn't have a big special shot. And yeah, point still made. If one score a point and 4th counter Fuji can't score a single one, the one who score point is stronger. 5th counter Fuji is in another league, and not the one I talk about. 4 counter Fuji is still Seigaku #2, above Kikumaru.

I just told you what 4thCounter can do to Kenya. Kenya has the same Tech as Hirakoba and he was dumbfounded by 4thCounter.
Kenya isn't suddenly going to become Shiraishi/Niou level and destroy 4thCounter lol.
As if Kenya can suddenly break Kirin Otoshi or Hakuryuu haha

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

And that page was bs Ken. It was far from concrete Ken. That's the issue. Only you felt Kaidoh's was truly superior.
Even though Niou who knows Laserbeam inside out was helpless against it, you still believe Kenya will shit on it.
"Really, like, wow" is my line here.

Explain how it's bs? And by that, I mean, explain how the method I mention of breaking the combo is wrong. Go ahead. I don't think it's wrong at all. Sharing the same path for majority of the path is a big flaw. Don't just say BS.

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

Lol, Kenya is guy that has achieved what? 3 points off of Shiraishi?
How did Yagyuu "almost lose"? Laserbeam was never returned properly lol.

Look like even Kaidoh stand a chance against Niou now, huh? His laser are better than Yagyuu.

Kikumaru almost return laser beam and would have if Yagyuu laser beam was the one use at the beginning of the match. It's even mention in the manga that his eye gotten use to Niou laser speed which is why Yagyuu laser work. That wouldn't be the case if they play singles. And Niou would have return laser beam if it was use. He's facing curve laser, which is never before shown in the series. And techniques in PoT generally, with a very very very few exceptions, work the 1st time it is use. So it got that benefit along with being use on the no illusion Niou.

And well, 3 points off Shiraishi is something that Kikumaru will never archive since the #2 lost almost a match to the Bible without getting a single points. Kikumaru is crap tier in singles. If you think Kikumaru can beat Kenya, that explain everything to me about your thought on Yagyuu as well.

I just told you what 4thCounter can do to Kenya. Kenya has the same Tech as Hirakoba and he was dumbfounded by 4thCounter.
Kenya isn't suddenly going to become Shiraishi/Niou level and destroy 4thCounter lol.
As if Kenya can suddenly break Kirin Otoshi or Hakuryuu haha

Not really...? Like what, Tech isn't just how much spin you put on the ball. And we already come to agreement that stats=/= move use by characters. If there's not big move to break, how could Kenya be dumbfound by it?

One got point and other one fail. I say 4 counter Fuji, so where does Kirin Otoshi come from? Without the evolve triple counter, Fuji is still above Kikumaru. So him losing while not being able to do anything while Kenya is capable to do something is more than enough proof that he's above Kikumaru. I don't see what's not clear about it.

Last edited by -Ken-; December 04, 2013 at 07:07 PM.

Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

...
I'm saying that Shiraishi/Kenya ARE NOT Ochi/Mouri. Making your point just as invalid.
Although I see your point on the Atobe thing. In fact, Atobe going equal with Ochi/Mouri due to a Synchro boost is pure bs now that I look back at it. That was without question a bullshit win. Atobe got wiped but the boost provided from his player on the floor at the net changed the game entirely? bs.

You don't say. That was never in question. The issue was you assuming Shiraishi/Kenya could handle Niou in a similar fashion to how Ochi/Mouri did. Which is absurd.

Sorry I must have misunderstood why you were saying my argument was invalid because immediately after you put the numbers in your previous post, you said this makes your argument very invalid.

I definitely felt the same way but a bullshit win is still a win. Just like how Yagyuu beat Niou. I don't understand how that worked. If Yagyuu could outplay Niou then why didn't he play any matches in the finals.

The fact that Krauser was chosen for the team shuffle instead of Kite or Akutsu is also kind of ridiculous. There are some times where teams are made out to be close or way better than another for story line purposes. These are still points that can't be ignored.

I'm not saying that I'm saying that Ochi/ Mouri didn't really do much to handle Niou. Honestly Niou didn't do much other then use the zero-shiki serve to keep his service games and use the Tezuka Phantom when Atobe was mentally assassinated.

Niou only used Tezuka Zone once which was off the zero shiki serve and didn't use hyaruken. So if Niou plays in the same way as he did against Ochi/Mouri, he will get injured again.

If you are suggesting that he will not push himself in the same way because his opponents are not the same caliber as Ochi/ Mouri then I kinda agree with you. First I think Shiraishi can handle Niou!Tezuka. Fuji handled Niou!Tezuka, I think Shiraishi can in the same way.

Shiraishi hit controlled cord balls against the sixth counter. Shiraishi had also come up with counters for each one of Fuji's special shots. I feel as though, having seen Fuji in the finals, he will be able to seal National Niou!Tezuka's special moves in the same way.

After that Niou!Tezuka has the ZSS, which will eventually lead to injury. Even Tezuka phantom is sealed by the cord ball technique, which would also hurt Niou!Tezuka's arm.

Then there is Yagyuu. In my opinion Yagyuu is not as good Kenya in doubles. I feel as Yagyuu's court coverage in the back would be 1000x better than that of Kikumaru in the Kanto Tournament. In this he was able to reach the laser. I think with his speed Kenya will be able to reach a curving laser even if he originally goes in the entire opposite direction of the ball. This is all speculation, but so is saying that Yagyuu will destroy Kenya.

In that way I think in terms of team work Yagyuu/ Niou = Kenya/ Shiraishi and in terms of individual skill Kenya/ Shiraishi > Yagyuu/ Niou.

Now if Niou/Yagyuu were somehow able to synchro without Niou abusing the ZSS and hurting his arm then I would agree that Yagyuu and Niou would win.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by -Ken-

Kikumaru almost return laser beam and would have if Yagyuu laser beam was the one use at the beginning of the match. It's even mention in the manga that his eye gotten use to Niou laser speed which is why Yagyuu laser work. That wouldn't be the case if they play singles. And Niou would have return laser beam if it was use. He's facing curve laser, which is never before shown in the series. And techniques in PoT generally, with a very very very few exceptions, work the 1st time it is use. So it got that benefit along with being use on the no illusion Niou.

And well, 3 points off Shiraishi is something that Kikumaru will never archive since the #2 lost almost a match to the Bible without getting a single points. Kikumaru is crap tier in singles. If you think Kikumaru can beat Kenya, that explain everything to me about your thought on Yagyuu as well.

The whole point is that Kikumaru has Motion Vision.
Something that only Kikumaru, Saeki, Sengoku and Ryoma have.
So to assume that other characters will cope with the Laser and Curving Laser just based on Kikumaru's stats alone is totally wrong.
Ignoring the fact that it took Kikumaru over 3 games to just ADJUST to the real Laser WITH a Doubles player backing him up where Kikumaru was able to stand back and analyse which is a luxury he wouldn't have in Singles, means that Laserbeams is far from an easy move to track with your eyes.

If a man with Motion Vision can't really do it against a limited laser, then when Yagyuu adds a completely new Laserbeam which he can hit from the exact same stance and in addition to the fact that Yagyuu can aim his Laserbeam in practically any direction, meaning a Curving Laser in any direction too, means there is little relevance to Kikumaru being able to only touch the Laser shot back in Regionals.
Yagyuu's moveset is in a different region now.

Sorry I must have misunderstood why you were saying my argument was invalid because immediately after you put the numbers in your previous post, you said this makes your argument very invalid.

Yeah, I agreed prior with you and concede that Atobe/Niou synchro is really just down to Atobe.
After analysing their win, I realised you were right and that is a serious bs win.

Originally Posted by floman

I definitely felt the same way but a bullshit win is still a win. Just like how Yagyuu beat Niou. I don't understand how that worked. If Yagyuu could outplay Niou then why didn't he play any matches in the finals.

It makes sense that Yagyuu couldn't play in the finals.
Yagyuu and Kaidoh learned each other's moves, then made superior version of them.
Kaidoh learned Laser off of Yagyuu and made Gyro Laser which is a superior shot.
Yagyuu learned Snake off of Kaidoh or was it Boomerang Snake? Either way, he made Curving Laser which is a superior shot.

The twist is that Kaidoh was able to master his superior version in such a short time that he could use it in time for Nationals tournament.
I'm pretty certain Yagyuu didn't master Curving Laser in time considering Niou didn't even know Curving Laser existed and they're best friends.
But yeah, Yagyuu can completely take out somebody of Niou's base stats as we've seen.

Originally Posted by floman

The fact that Krauser was chosen for the team shuffle instead of Kite or Akutsu is also kind of ridiculous. There are some times where teams are made out to be close or way better than another for story line purposes. These are still points that can't be ignored.

I didn't mind that. Konomi did it in a way that showed that originally Oni wasn't trying to necessarily defeat Court 3.
He just wanted to give the MSers an opportunity to enjoy some massive growth.
And he felt the best players at the time who could gain the most growth were the ones he chose.
And Oni got it spot on for almost all of them except two of them.
(Krauser and Shiraishi) since they both sorta wasted their time from what I saw considering Shiraishi just took off a weight, and Krauser's stats haven't changed since Nakagauchi showed him his weakness.

Not really...? Like what, Tech isn't just how much spin you put on the ball. And we already come to agreement that stats=/= move use by characters. If there's not big move to break, how could Kenya be dumbfound by it?

Kenya's Mental stat isn't high and his Tech is average.
His Mental and Tech is identical to Hirakoba's. The evidence really points towards 4thCounter having the same effect it had on Hirakoba as it did to Kenya I think.
We've also all come to the agreement that special moves can have a different impact against particular stats.
The same way Rai can be hit by somebody with an extremely high tech stat, or Hadoukyuu by somebody with an extremely high Tech or Power stat.

Kenya only reaches the 18 total due to his Speed. Neither his Tech or Power or Mental are notably high and in SPoT ALL 3 have been shown to be more useful than Speed thus far.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Yes, but it have that huge of impact on Hirakoba because it say he put everything into that shot. That, and he's using a special shot. Kenya didn't that kind of big move at all.

Yes and no. He felt despair because he had nothing left, but iirc, doesn't he comment that he feels as if the ball is near but he can't reach it?
He says something that shows that not only is he affected mentally, but he really just can't get his head around the move.
Since in reality at that stage he should have still felt victory was his as he just needed to ace Kawamura before he realized his Habu had actually weakened so bad that even Kawamura could hit it back

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

But the circumstance is very clear there. Even Rin state it. He put everything he have into that Habu, so that's why when his opponent break that Habu, his heart falter. Kenya doesn't have such shot. And because he doesn't have enough strength left to continue hitting Habu at that level anymore, so Kawamura can hit it back. Rin at that point can no longer ace Kawamura. So him feeling that way is perfectly normal.

Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Originally Posted by -Ken-

But the circumstance is very clear there. Even Rin state it. He put everything he have into that Habu, so that's why when his opponent break that Habu, his heart falter. Kenya doesn't have such shot. And because he doesn't have enough strength left to continue hitting Habu at that level anymore, so Kawamura can hit it back. Rin at that point can no longer ace Kawamura. So him feeling that way is perfectly normal.

Hirakoba actually describes how the Tech defeats him. With Hirakoba's Tech and Mental matching Kenya's own Tech and Mental I'm pretty sure they'll suffer against 4thCounter in the same way. Kenya isn't Shiraishi or Niou or anything.

Hirakoba comments on how he put everything into that Giant Habu sure, but that becomes completely irrelevant when he describes in detail how the 4thCounter mentally defeats him due to the movement of the shot.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

Kaidoh has his combo and Chitose can't use Saiki, how is the latter clearly ahead?

And, as far as we know, Kin didn't learn completely how to use TnK yet (I mean, he only used it when his ass was getting kicked -just like Ryoma in the Nationals, and Echizen hasn't used it again since then-) whereas Tezuka used TnK when he was already winning and even used it again minutes later against Fuji.

Re: Doubles instead of knockout singles

I'll say Kintarou can use his TnK. He activated it until the end of the match and there's no pages that suggest he can't use it outside of assumption, unlike, say, Beast Syncho or double black aura, where there are panels showing they can't use it at will.

Kintarou/Chitose wins,

Atobe is the strongest players of those by far, but I don't think he's that much ahead of Niou, and Yagyuu are probably much better than Hiyoshi. Niou/Yagyuu win.

However, I'll add that I think Minami/Echizen can beat any pair because Aura ball alone. As long as Minami serve and get out of the way, I don't see any players winning beating that besides Tezuka and Kintarou (And no, Sanada got whoop 6-0 by Shuuji. He can't handle Aura ball. And I doubt Shuuji can handle aura ball too, so I don't see Yukimura doing hot either)

Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.