
Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars - Shivetya
http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaway-cars.html
======
ryandrake
One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket.
It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to
make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles.

To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs
the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the
manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threatening call to the
"owner" after he tries to get diagnostic information from his own car [1],
well that's so far beyond crossing the line it's not even funny.

I think we're going to start seeing "jailbroken" Teslas soon after they start
falling out of their warranty period. I'm surprised it hasn't happened
already. You'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already
bought one of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills
and desire to actually own what they paid for.

1: [http://gas2.org/2014/04/14/road-slightly-traveled-hacking-
te...](http://gas2.org/2014/04/14/road-slightly-traveled-hacking-tesla-
model-s/)

~~~
userbinator
_You 'd think that out of the thousands of people who have already bought one
of these cars, there might be one out there with both the skills and desire to
actually own what they paid for_

On the other hand, it could just be that those who want to really own their
cars would not consider buying a Tesla anyway, and those who have the skills
are too scared of the legal aspects. I think at the moment, electric cars are
still somewhat niche and don't really appeal to the demographic who would be
modding their cars. The aftermarket community for existing cars basically
doesn't care about emissions --- one of the biggest attractions of an
electric. As a bit of a car-geek myself, I'll admit that electrics are rather
"boring" and for the same reason I'm not so interested in the newer super-
computerised vehicles either; it's the noisy, smelly, smoky, aggressive,
obnoxious-mechanical-monster nature of petrol/diesel engines that's the really
"fun" part. Batteries, electronics, and motors just don't evoke quite the same
feeling.

~~~
Amezarak
At least for me, it's not about souping the car up, it's about doing repairs
and maintenance myself because a) it's cheaper and b) it's more convenient.

If I knew I was going to have to drive a car to the dealership anytime
something went wrong, I would not buy that car. It's a big hassle (especially
if the dealership is any distance away) and almost always outrageously
expensive for anything outside of warranty. And if it's something that I can't
do myself, I'd rather take it to a cheaper local mechanic I know and trust.

According to the article, Teslas only have service manuals available in
Massachusetts (and there only on an extremely expensive subscription basis),
no independent shops, and doesn't have a working OBD-II port. That sounds like
a nightmare to me.

Granted, it's way out of my price range anyway. ;)

~~~
mcv
Same here. We recently bought a second hand Prius at an official dealer
(because new is unreasonably expensive, we do care about emissions, and I
think we got some warranty from the official dealer). Half a year later, the
brakes need to be replaced. Turns out not to fall under the warranty, whereas
we think it's unreasonable to sell a car with brakes that need to be replaced
that soon. Repair at the official dealer is pretty expensive.

So my wife takes it to our old, trusty local mechanic, and their repairs are a
lot cheaper. I forgot if they could also advise us on whether this was
reasonable in the first place.

I think my mother also often ended up at an independent mechanic after getting
disappointed by official dealers. (My dad always drove leased company cars so
didn't have to worry about this stuff. I know nothing about cars (but I'm glad
my wife does).)

~~~
ufukbay
I bought a used car around 2 years ago and went to the dealer because of a
problem and was shocked when he informed me about (obviously after selling the
car) what everything doesn't fall under the warranty. It's probably easier to
say what falls under which is the motor and transmission. Otherwise they bring
the argument with wear parts which I can understand for the brakes.

It's unlucky that they sold you a car where the brakes were soon to be
replaced but they are really wear parts. However I was suprised to hear that
also most of the electrical stuff doesn't fall under warranty. I'm from
Germany so it might be different in other countries.

------
brandmeyer
> A lot of Tesla fans claim that electric vehicles are inherently superior,
> because with fewer moving parts, they'll be able to stay on the road
> basically forever - no piston rings to wear, no transmissions to fail, no
> oil to change.

There are at least two major components that "wear out" in power electronics -
capacitors and power transistors. Traditional vacuum-impregnated motor winding
insulation also has a wear-out mechanism.

Electrolytic capacitors have both an electrolyte breakdown and dryout at
extended temperatures and voltage. Film capacitors also have a (much slower)
dielectric breakdown. Power transistors have two wear-out mechanisms: one that
is based on thermal cycling of the wire bonds and one that is based on thermal
cycling of the solder between the transistor and direct-copper-bonded
substrate.

Datacenter-scale UPS addresses both of these with field-replaceable modules.
The main AC and DC capacitor banks are replaceable in advance of failure, and
power transistors are field replaceable in much larger power modules,
typically only after a failure.

Vacuum-impregnated motor winding insulation is typically not completely void-
free. The high dV/dt that a direct-connected inverter imposes on the windings
causes large repetitive voltage spikes across the winding insulation. The
voltage spikes trigger partial discharge in the voids, which in turn erodes
the insulation.

IMO, long-lived electric cars should at least have capacitor banks that are
schedule-replaced, and drive modules that are replaceable after failure. With
the level of diagnostics and history monitoring available today, we should be
able to replace both components in advance of failure as well.

Do electric cars have lower maintenance, longer life, and higher reliability
than ICE cars? Definitely, probably, and probably, respectively. But "lower",
"longer", and "higher" don't mean "zero", "forever", and "infinite".

~~~
georgefrick
I found your addition very interesting. But I think the "Tesla fans" referred
to, are referring to something different.

The Tesla vehicles are "missing" a lot of parts that rust, corrode, and cause
engineering challenges. One of the main ones behind the exhaust system. Speak
with a series of car mechanics and they'll invariably tell stories of cars
that never received an oil change until something fails. There are videos,
pictures, and documentation of Tesla being able to swap drive trains, etc.

Put together, Tesla is able to better protect the frame and body from
corrosion by separating it from the same parts that usually "Carry this
along". That's a lot of text to say they reduce the surface area and mass of
corrosion and failure prone parts.

This isn't to say I agree, but I find the information all fascinating (as a
car guy). The best way to make a car, in my mind; more serviceable is to
increase the protections from rust and corrosion. Otherwise a simple brake pad
ends up being an entire brake system upon repair attempt. In regards to
electronics; they can go in sealed compartments and be easily serviced. How
awesome. They can also just as easily be replaced by a superior
implementation.

Anyways, your post made me ramble a bit but I'm trying to determine if I agree
with the original post or not.

~~~
WalterBright
I have an 89 Ford. It has been parked outside in rainy Seattle for 20 some
years. Other than the exhaust system, it is free of corrosion. I find this
rather incredible. Ford has done a truly amazing job with corrosion
protection, unlike my older car which rusts when a cloud passes by.

I also have to compliment Ford on building a low maintenance vehicle that is
also cheap and simple to repair when it does go wrong.

------
qume
This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I
drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made.
Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you
could want to fix.

Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap
as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many
of them are still on the road (I just replaced the car window regulator -
normally a few hundred $$, got it on amazon delivered for $23).

Made to be serviced/repaired. Quite a bit of fun doing it too. You can pick
one up for $2k and it will probably do another 200k miles no problem.

And the best bit? FAR FAR more environmentally friendly than a new Tesla. I'll
leave that up to you to figure out ;)

~~~
Swizec
You should look up crash tests between cars considered safe in 1994 and modern
cars.

I saw one for two Renault Espace models. The old one was so crumply compared
to the new one, that the new one didn't even deploy airbags because there was
no need. Both got top safety ratings when new.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQS-7heF-
og](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQS-7heF-og)

~~~
qume
Oh, and one more thing. Go walk around the yard of a tow company. Be prepared
to feel sick.

You'll come away with the conclusion that the standard crash tests, which are
well designed for common accidents, are still just a small minority of serious
accidents.

And the most horrifying thing that I came away with is the number of wrecks
where there is 'car' where the passengers should be. Even in trucks and SUVs.

The strongest cars ever built historically are still the strongest cars on the
road, even though there have been some great innovations that they miss out
on.

This is just for fun really, not trying to make a point with it, but this is
an old Volvo destroying other cars:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95yOXPoR_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95yOXPoR_s)

~~~
userbinator
Volvos definitely have a well-deserved reputation; for many years, their
slogan was "Drive Safely", and they took it seriously.

Here's another video where the Volvo's passenger compartment doesn't even
change shape while the other car's is completely crushed:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt0oQsRvtWI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt0oQsRvtWI)

Although a downside is that, as the joke goes, "a Volvo doesn't need a crumple
zone; it uses the other car." Not so good if the other car also happens to be
a Volvo...

~~~
kerberosg
That is only true if the other car is of the same era.

Verus newer cars the crumple roles are very much reserved

[https://youtu.be/qBDyeWofcLY?t=105](https://youtu.be/qBDyeWofcLY?t=105)

------
valine
This is very troubling to read. I can understand that tampering with an
automobile might pose safety concerns. I can also understand that Tesla is
trying to protect its brand. That being said, the fact that Tesla is
monitoring individual cars in a way that they can detect when you're used the
Ethernet port is seriously Orwellian. I can only imagine this will get worse
as cars become more autonomous.

~~~
zanny
The ability to potentially break your car has never stopped any other car in
history from having an accessible engine compartment.

This is basically in tandem with the John Deere story - the consequences of
proprietary software bleed into the physical world and cause an incredible
amount of difficulty for people who do not even recognize what the problem is.
Tesla can only get away with all this because of how digital the car is in the
first place.

~~~
ericd
Tinkering with an electric car when you don't know what you're doing will kill
you so much more easily than a gasoline car will. That probably has something
to do with it?

~~~
zanny
"Sticks a potato in exhaust pipe"

"Drives around car"

"Dies"

Alternatively, disconnect the steering column and drive off a cliff.

There are a thousand easy ways to kill yourself making uninformed
modifications to any motor vehicle, by its nature. Its a ton of steel that
goes up to a tenth the speed of sound. If anything, the reduced complexity of
electric vehicles gives you fewer vectors for wrongdoing to screw yourself
over. You can break any number of parts in a combustion engine to make it
fail, whereas in an electric vehicle all you really have is steering column +
drivetrain + battery pack.

~~~
ericd
It's much easier to intuit the risks from a mechanical danger than an
electrical one. It's the difference between breaking a mechanical linkage and
accidentally brushing up against a live terminal.

------
bri3d
The "paywalled workshop manual" requirements are common to every manufacturer.
The only reason service manuals are available for free online for other modern
cars is that they're ripped from the manufacturer's pay portal, not that the
manufacturer is supplying them out of the goodness of their hearts. And the
service prices are pretty much in line with other luxury cars at the price
point.

Not that that really defends Tesla, though. Cutting off an owner from dealer
parts supply because their car is salvaged is unprecedented as far as I know.
And the cutthroat attitude that every part of the car is a trade secret is
ridiculous.

I think the biggest challenge for Tesla when they release the Model 3 will be
scaling up their service network while scaling down costs. $70,000 car owners
are generally willing to pay $400-$800 every few years for a dealer service.
$30,000 car owners aren't. And for most manufacturers, scaling dealer service
is a franchise : they need to supply parts, training, and certification, not a
whole service department. For Tesla, it's a brave entry into a challenging
core business.

~~~
JupiterMoon
Do most manufacturers only supply manuals when legally compelled to?

~~~
burger_moon
If you pay for alldata or michelin ondemand you get access to all of that.

------
nraynaud
Interesting, I work in the wind turbine industry (at the margin, and since one
month, I guess I'm an expert), and it's the same, there are interesting
sensors and data everywhere, but everything is locked down, and as long as the
warranty runs, the owner of the turbine is at the mercy of a very reluctant
maker for every maintenance task. The owner can't use any of those very useful
sensors to assess the state of the turbine, he has to call external
consultants who will re-instrument the turbine with external sensors at great
cost, when they could have just downloaded the existing data from their office
to give a look at it.

~~~
brandmeyer
And then what happens when the mfr. goes out of business? For example, see
Clipper Windpower.

~~~
scblock
Specific to Clipper, the owner of the technology keeps enough money around to
keep rebuilding the crazy gearboxes for current owners, while other spares can
often be obtained directly from the actual component manufacturers. Third
party service organizations like EDF Services or UpWind keep them running for
you, or you can hire your own techs.

Depending on the contract the relevant design information may also put in
escrow in the event the manufacturer goes under and spares are no longer
available.

For comparison, Zond and US Windpower died more than a decade ago but the
owners are still keeping the machines going. It can be a challenge but it's
not the end of the world.

------
nkw
I'm glad someone wrote about this. I have a deposit on a Model X, and this is
the single largest issue that is making me lean towards not buying the
vehicle. I occasionally enjoy doing my own maintenance or repair on stuff I
own and my present vehicle (close to a Model X equivalent but dinosaur powered
and German) has been pleasant in that regard. There is nice fully functional
(though Windows) third-party diagnostic software available, the actual service
documentation is available to owners (for a pretty reasonable fee), there is a
bit of competition on parts price amongst dealers (though ultimately only
within a certain range as they still originate with one manufacturer) and I
haven't once felt like instead of owning the car I merely have a license from
the manufacturer to use it. I worry after the warranty expires that I will be
at the mercy of Tesla for any service and support, which is an unknown
quantity right now. I've seen the terrible spot a product owner can be left in
when a manufacturer decides (for whatever reason) that service and support are
now their primary profit center. Not only are you screwed in that your product
now costs a fortune to maintain, your product is now essentially worthless for
resale because everyone knows the cost to maintain and repair it makes it
uneconomical. (See, e.g. several private aircraft companies which went
bankrupt)

------
phkahler
This is dumb. Can you replace the tie rods, brake pads, tires? So long as the
regular maintenance items can be handled I don't see a problem. Electronic
parts on other cars are getting herd to replace too - they do things like
record the VIN code upon first use and refuse to work in a different car, all
in the name of anti-theft. Also, as people get excited about self driving
cars, safety becomes a huge concern. You have throttle, brakes, steering,
camera systems, radar, all working together to achieve that. You're not going
to be tampering with any of that stuff on any car in the near future.

So if regular maintenance items can be replaced, and body damage can be
repaired, I don't see the complaint.

~~~
mdorazio
Yes, basic maintenance like you describe is entirely possible to do on your
own or at any normal mechanic. Body work can be done at normal high-end body
shops as well, with the caveat that getting replacement panels from Tesla is
expensive and challenging due to their limited production capacity.

Source: Friend's Tesla recently needed some body work to repair a dented door.

------
pcarolan
This sounds a lot like the open vs closed system debate we had/(have?) with
computers. I'm glad that in my youth I could wrench on the internals of a PC
and I'm glad that in my 30s I never have to because my Mac 'just works'. Also,
this debate is older than I am: [http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-
Maintenance-Inquiry...](http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-
Inquiry/dp/0060589469)

~~~
loopbit
If you had read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance you'd known that it
has very little to do with actual motorcycle maintenance, apart of using it as
a tool to make its point.

~~~
wetmore
This is a kind of dickish way to reply. Yeah it's not the original point but
there is a discussion of this issue in it IIRC.

~~~
loopbit
It may have come across dickish, It was not my intention. I had no time to go
in more detail and just left it as a note.

As for the issue at hand, yes, it's mentioned nearly at the beginning of the
book, when the narrator is discussing the motorcycles each character has and
why they chose it, mentioning the two views[0]. If I recall correctly, there's
no discussion, it's simply there to give an example of the concept of quality
that the author is trying to define. Anyone thinking that the book has
anything to do with actual motorcycle maintenance (or worse, trying to use the
advice) didn't understood the ideas and concepts of the book.

[0] The tinkerer, open view, exemplified with an old motorcycle (of which I
don't remember the make) vs the "it just works", closed view, using a brand
new BMW.

------
tokipin
People used to repair televisions but at some point it became cheaper to just
buy a new one due to the tech/manufacturing being sufficiently evolved and
commoditized/cheap, as well as the issues involved with repairing more complex
circuitry.

Electric cars have the same potential, I think, because of their inherent
simplicity. That potential already seems clear given that battery costs will
keep falling.

~~~
seiji
VCR repair too.

The big thing nobody talks about (or some people even brag about) is how Tesla
records your entire driving history to improve their future products. It's
kinda creepy and you have no option but to obey if you want the Tesla
Experience.

Other companies are trying to "catch up" in this way too like how Google
Android Auto Car Integration _requires_ manufactures allow Google Android Auto
Car Integration to send live, real-time individual car performance data back
to Google HQ so they can also analyze it all for their own purposes.

There's basically no legitimate reason why a 3rd party music player app
requires your car to transmit real time acceleration data, sensor data, fluid
levels, and seat positions back to Google.

------
vvanders
I don't think things are as dire as he makes it out:

1\. Small amount of cars on the road so there's limited incentive for
aftermarket parts.

2\. People already do brakes/tires/suspension/etc. It's a car after all.

3\. I wouldn't want to get _near_ the powertrain. 425kw(~400V @ 1,000 Amps)
will kill you if you touch something that you shouldn't.

I think it'll be a bigger issue once we see the Model 3 on the road.

~~~
TD-Linux
Your computer power supply has a ~400 volt rail in it. Are you unwilling to
ever open a desktop computer?

The Tesla battery has contactors inside of it, so you'll only have 400V live
when the car is on. Additionally, assuming the HV is floating relative to the
chassis, you need to touch two spots at different potentials to actually get
shocked.

That said, it looks like this is an attempt to prevent service of a lot of
non-powertrain components, considering that the Tesla owner in the article got
a letter for connecting just to the ethernet port.

~~~
saulrh
> Your computer power supply has a ~400 volt rail in it. Are you unwilling to
> ever open a desktop computer?

If it's plugged in and turned on - yeah, sure, I don't want to muck around in
there. The thing is, my computer power supply:

* Can be completely physically disconnected from the rest of the computer

* _Doesn 't have a battery in it_

If I pull the plug on my desktop, disconnect the power supply, and maybe if
I'm being really paranoid touch a lamp to it just to be sure there isn't
anything trapped in a cap or inductor, I know that that 400 volt rail is
actually at _zero_ volts relative to anything near me. Batteries? Especially
power batteries that I can't guarantee are physically disconnected, and that
can't really be grounded because they're inside an insulated mobile platform?
It's more like looking inside a microwave oven or a CRT, and you're _damn
right_ that I don't open those up.

~~~
smileysteve
> Doesn't have a battery in it

Any work done on a car w/ airbags (the last 20 years) has had a risk of airbag
explosion with any localized short.

The Takata airbag recall means that many of these may shoot shrapnel at you.
And the original airbags were known for occasionally flinging phosphorous at
you.

Beyond that, Lead Acid batteries can be dangerous when the battery or the
alternator fails - that's not steam, that's sulphuric acid steam.

~~~
saulrh
I don't know why airbags aren't opto-isolated digital devices activated by
simple challenge and response over canbus (read a single byte off address 0,
write the same byte back to address 1 to trigger). I'd have expected
pyrotechnics to have been first on the list for conversion to digital.

------
dkhenry
This article is spot on, but the author fails to account for the fact that on
_most_ new cars, your in the same boat. Unless its a maintenance item, your
not going to be able to replace it with anything but the manufacture's
blessing. The biggest difference is there are a lot more maintenance parts on
a conventional car, so you have more of an opportunity to replace things. It
was my understanding that the only true maintenance part on the Tesla was the
wiper blades.

~~~
jonknee
> It was my understanding that the only true maintenance part on the Tesla was
> the wiper blades.

And the brakes / tires.

~~~
tclmeelmo
And the HVAC system. I don't know but wouldn't be surprised if the HVAC system
on Teslas, in addition to the cabin environment, had some responsibility for
the battery and motor thermal management too.

------
charlesdenault
If Tesla's longterm business strategy is to build a fleet of autonomous cars
that operate in fractional ownership/lease models, of course it makes sense to
build a car that has a <10 year product life cycle. They can iterate quickly,
release new versions, and not have legacy hardware on the market. If they use
a buyback program similar to Apple's it might make sense for their particular
demos.

Time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the Model 3 has for a
warranty, considering it's targeting a much broader market than the Model S/X.

~~~
teacup50
Iterate quickly?

Hardware is not software. The environmental cost alone of building a new car
is outrageous.

In addition to which, the SV2.0 "iterate quickly" ideal turns consumers into
guinea pigs for half-baked and half-broken products that will just be updated
out from under them.

~~~
mdorazio
And yet Apple produces a new $500+ phone every single year, intentionally
leaving behind customers who are still using hardware more than 3 years old. I
would say that the software iteration business model is making inroads into
the hardware market as well, including in the automotive space. The solution
to your guinea pigs point is a lease model, in which customers get a new car
every two years to stay on top of developments. Or when autonomous cars are
available, don't own a car at all - outsource all the hardware upgrades and
maintenance to the manufacturer and pay for the service of getting from point
A to point B when you need it (ala Uber).

~~~
teacup50
What you're proposing isn't a good thing. It's an ugly, environmentally
unfriendly, anti-consumer model.

How many people are debt-financing their $800+ iPhone? How much value is that
extracting from people, and what are the opportunity costs for them?

What's the environmental impact of phones becoming nothing more than expensive
bricks after 2-3 years due to lack of vendor support, coupled platform DRM
that prevents re-use?

What happens when market choices disappear along with the very concept of
ownership?

This dystopian ideal of inescapable corporatism may be a commercially viable,
but it's not remotely ethical.

~~~
mchahn
> phones becoming nothing more than expensive bricks after 2-3 years due to
> lack of vendor support, coupled platform DRM that prevents re-use?

I have repurposed my old Samsung android phones around the house as displays
on the walls. They all have the net connection shut down and I use the wifi.
They all work great and I see no reason they won't work until the hardware
dies.

I know this is only one data point. Can someone describe how other models of
phones can become bricks?

Edit: People less weird than me can still use the phones like tablets are used
without a radio connection.

~~~
teacup50
> _Can someone describe how other models of phones can become bricks?_

iPhone's have a fully DRM'd trust chain, starting with the bootloader, which
is itself on-die and immutable.

Installing a new OS image requires online activation with Apple's servers,
which return public-key signed installation permission.

Unless there's a vulnerability that allows jailbreak, you're not installing
non-Apple-approved software on that device.

That's the future of the fully centralized/cloud-based 'software iteration
business model ... making inroads into the hardware market'

~~~
mchahn
Ah, I understand what you are saying now. Technically, not being able to
install new software isn't bricked since you can still run the old. I only run
the browser on my old phones so I didn't notice this.

------
sremani
Great article, very forward looking and constructive criticism. Tesla is a
young company with Silicon Valley ethos, it does not surprise me, they are
treating Cars like Software. Where you are licensed to use software but do not
own it and how that world view may or may not work.

I am just wondering since Volt is from Old guard, its chances are better
because the maintainability is a bit more traditional (but not all Volts can
be repaired at any GM dealership). We may need a different model for EVs and
PHEVs.

[http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579](http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579)

Logically it may extend to other EVs and PHEVs like Model S, but here is a
real world volt which crossed 300K miles (the driver has a long commute, its
kind of real world validation of longevity of EVs/PHEVs)

~~~
ams6110
_they are treating Cars like Software. Where you are licensed to use software
but do not own it_

Why do they sell the cars at all then? Why not just lease them?

------
pyb
After reading the article, really I don't think Tesla is offering particularly
worse conditions than any other manufacturer. Their 8 year guarantee is
actually pretty inclusive, and now it's transferrable as well. The lack of
indie garages is the only item in his list I agree with, but things could
change in the future, as the pool of ex-Tesla mechanics grows.

------
api
A lot of this revolves around the new business model of using the Internet to
lock everything down. Basically half your car, house, whatever will be in the
cloud.

~~~
jacquesm
I refuse to buy products like that. If it doesn't operate stand alone then you
can keep it.

~~~
awqrre
There should also be an easy way to disconnect your car from the network,
because apparently, newer cars are always connected and reporting on your
activities[1].

1\. [http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-
gps-2014-1](http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1)

~~~
bane
Or visa-versa, let me tap into that data connection for free for internet
access.

~~~
awqrre
Most people probably would choose that option then, but either way, you should
have to opt-in for the data sharing (whether or not it includes free Internet
or other services...):

Example: 1\. Do you want to share data with us?* 2\. Do you want to share data
with us and get free Internet?* 3\. Do you want to share data with us and get
a free service service that requires data sharing (ie: ads as you drive past
businesses)?* 4\. None of the above.

* Position, speed, microphone, car weight, Wi-Fi devices detected, etc..

------
matt_wulfeck
why wouldn't an electric car be easier to service? A combustible engine has so
many moving parts, fuel pump, filter, oil changes, regulator, etc etc. an
electric car is just a battery and an electric engine, which is actually a
pretty old peice of technology.

I do concede that the battery is a pretty complex piece of engineering. My
fear is that DRM "authorized" replacements will become like the toner
cartridges of the future.

~~~
CalRobert
The article discusses the difficulty of servicing a Tesla at length. Perhaps
you should read it?

------
protomyth
How is "Tampering with the Vehicle and its systems, including installation of
non-Tesla accessories or parts or their installation, or any damage directly
or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from the installation or use of
non-Tesla parts or accessories;" not a violation of Magnuson–Moss Warranty
Act?

~~~
arkem
There's an exception if you can convince the FTC that the product will only
work correctly with branded parts. Take a look at 15 USC 2302(c):
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2302](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2302)

~~~
protomyth
Has that ever been applied to car parts?

------
greendesk
I remembered this story when reading the article:

A boy wants to repair his dad's printer. As he troubleshoots the problem, he
calls a repair shops with the information on the printer. The repair shops
gives him guidance on how to repair the printer on his own and sends the parts
for it. The boy asks: "Why would you do it? Would not you make more money by
asking me to have it repaired at the shop?" "Oh, but when people try to repair
it on their own they usually spend much more money after their attempted
repair."

I have been burned many times by car repairmen. A misdiagnosed or malice
repair is a very big nuisance. I rather trust official repairs than garage
shops. If I had a Tesla, I would lean towards using the official service.

~~~
protomyth
"I rather trust official repairs than garage shops."

Had a Chevy and took it in for an official repair on the recall. They didn't
do it correctly. Had it in the shop because the belt broke (not timing) and
they asked if it I had taken it in for the recall. I was a bit peeved to find
out the official shop had not only messed up the recall repair on the brakes,
they had actually broke some other stuff.

Took my Dad's Buick into Devils Lake to get the door repaired. Common problem
on that model, and the local repair shop (Harold's) decided ordering a $120
plastic part was all kinds of dumb, so he made an aluminum version of the
part. It never broke again.

Its about people and incentives. There are very important consumer protections
in not letting the manufactures control everything. I have seen bad
manufacture shops and good ones and good and bad independent shops. Its about
people.

If we can keep manufactures from controlling all repairs with decent
legislation, we might be able to keep a strong and healthy 3rd party repair
capability. Otherwise, its just one more thing we don't actually own and the
incentive is to build things that will break.

------
AndrewKemendo
So maybe this is a dumb question but does this mean that whomever builds an
"open" EV will win in the long run? My guess is not and people will just get
locked into their "platform" vehicle in the same way that you are locked into
Apple devices.

~~~
neffy
Not a dumb question at all. I would say that it means that there's a very real
business opportunity for anyone who wants to compete with Tesla and takes the
open route. Beyond that who knows, but the very fact that they're shutting
down analysis as much as possible (they probably don't really care that much
about hackers, it's the reverse engineering shops that all the major car
manufacturers run that would be their big fear), suggests that what they have
is easy to copy. Or reinvent.

History, I suspect, will be on the side of the battery makers.

------
tinhangliu
Putting a lithium battery on a traditional car doesn't make the mobility
industry more sustainable. Tesla's are still going to end up in car
graveyards.. To be sustainable, we need to rethink how cars are designed from
the bottom up. Especially to sustain the growth in car-as-a-service (i.e.
Higher usage rates) we need modular design to have replaceable and upgradable
parts, without throwing away what works.

That's why we created OSVehicle,the first open source electric vehicle
platform. www.osvehicle.com

------
al_biglan
Interesting, but Tesla is both just getting started and "feeling the space" in
the auto industry. They have taken pride in taking a different approach to
traditional car companies and I imagine some of the wording around the
Extended Warranty is simply being new and not copy-pasting examples from other
companies.

Also, Tesla isn't making cars for everyone (yet) but instead focusing on
expensive/luxury cars. Rather than compare against GM/Honda/etc. How do they
compare against Maserati/Aston Martin/etc.?

Finally, as a young company, it may indeed be their _goal_ to build cars that
last forever, but the first few generations they are still pushing the
envelope of (their) understanding. In this case, bringing ell cars back to
their repair centers may be the "right" way to build this experience into
their future automobiles.

So... "yeah, they aren't making cars that will last more than N years unless
you, as an owner, are prepared to sink a bunch of cash into achieving this" It
may be more interesting to watch the auto that replaces the Model S. Both in
terms of their timeframe for introducing new models (beyond expanding into
different classes of vehicles) as well as how they adopt what they learn into
more fundamental design changes. Thank you to all those cutting edge people
willing to buy Teslas now. I'll wait 5-10 years till they get mainstream and
keep my Honda and Toyota on the road for 250k miles :-)

------
norea-armozel
There's always been a push in the automotive industry to make parts in cars
that the average person can't replace or repair easily. If anything, this
makes more money for the automakers (like Tesla) because they can setup all
kinds of service licenses and the like at their leisure. And if a particular
product line gets too long in the tooth, then you just killed off any
authorized servicing and parts. Now you got an instant customer if they keep
thinking it's worth it. Especially if Tesla were to institute some sort of
trade in program that would be cheap to finance but great for PR especially if
it touts the recycling angle. Frankly, I'm surprised no one would think such a
possible outcome was going to happen. Elon's not dumb, he's a businessman
first and foremost. Telsa cars aren't a charity. You buy them to feel good,
they are nice fun cars to drive, then when the time comes you're likely to get
bored with it anyways and want to trade for the newest model because you're a
good little consumer, right?

------
lacker
None of this seems "throwaway" to me. It just means that rather than build a
product that ends up being repaired by a distributed army of mechanics, they
are going "full stack" and aiming to repair everything in-house. To me that
seems like the ideal system - some people like the author might enjoy
repairing their own cars, but I would rather not.

~~~
carlivar
Now imagine Apple got rid of independent repair shops (they are already
heading in this direction pretty much). There would be outrage, and there's
already unease with Apple's direction in these areas. Why does Tesla get a
pass?

~~~
x0x0
My phone and laptop have a much lower price and expected service life than a
$100k vehicle.

~~~
carlivar
What is the price and service life at which it becomes okay?

------
mhandley
If the resale value of an out-of-warranty Tesla ends up being essentially
zero, the new ones will start to look like a pretty poor investment. This will
impact Tesla's sales. You can be pretty sure that Tesla will rectify this
eventually if they want to stay in business in the face of emerging
competition from other electric cars.

------
mizzao
It seems like at least one of the problems mentioned here is going to be
common to many cars in the future: more and more of the vehicle will involve
software rather than hardware, and as such is less transparent to the end-
user. It's not just Tesla customers who will be dealing with this.

------
sklogic
Not sure singling out Tesla is fair. Pretty much all the modern (built in 21st
century) cars are far less serviceable and far less modular than they used to
be before. The military designs are the only exception from this unfortunate
trend, for the obvious reasons.

~~~
mcv
I've always loved the idea of the Citroen 2CV, which was famously easy to
repair (sometimes with some string and chewing gum), and trivial to modify.
But it's an old car and is not being made anymore, and no modern car really
seems to fit that niche.

------
callesgg
The first thing that hit my mind was that they are doing it the apple way,
apple is doing quite fine with its locked devices.

like most engineers I like to play with and explore my technical equipment but
for most people it is just a hasle.

~~~
soared
I had the same thought. How many people would ever even consider maintaining
their own car? I bet its insignificant in the face of Tesla's target market.

------
greggman
Given the cars have various levels of self driving it would seem like the
moment you mod your car Tesla would want nothing to do with you because you've
changed something that could cause a crash.

That seems in some way different from a non-self driving car. Of course you
should be able to do anything you want with your car but would it be
unreasonable if Tesla basically disabled all their software and services at
that moment? Basically making it clear if you mod the car they want no
responsibility in what happens when it's self driving.

------
rebootthesystem
Inherent issues with anything battery powered:

    
    
        - I have 20 year old grid powered drills, saws, 
          routers, sawzalls, sanders
        - They all work and in perfect condition
        - Same period: Three sets of battery powered drills
        - Technology changes: NiCd to Lithium
        - Battery pack voltage/form-factor EOL
        - Aftermarket batteries expensive crap
        - Good motor, gearbox, chuck discarded
        - Environmental impact of early EOL?
    

The Tesla scenario:

    
    
        - Will they be around in 20 years?
        - Will there be any parts for current cars?
        - Will you have access to service manuals, software and information?
    

The battery packs:

    
    
        - Technology and chemistry will evolve
        - No reason to make packs with 20 year old tech 
        - Will Tesla guarantee replacement packs in 10 to 20 years?
        - Could be vehicle lifetime limiting factor
        - Shame to crunch a perfectly good chassis, motor, etc.
        - Potentially significant environmental impact
    

Working on electric cars:

    
    
        - Most people not qualified, even most techies
        - 400~500 V DC systems are deadly dangerous
        - Electric cars will be the domain of experts, not hobbyists
        - High voltage, high power, high energy density 
          system can do horrific things in accidents
        - Who wants to be the responsible party?
    

After market:

    
    
        - Potential for advanced after-market companies
        - More efficient, smaller motor controllers
        - Smaller, lighter, more energy-dense battery packs
        - On-board computers and entertainment systems
        - Might not be viable market for another 20 years
        - Tesla (and others) likely not interested in doing 
          this themselves, they want to sell new cars
    

Electric car market:

    
    
        - In 20 years all makers will have electric cars
        - Multiple models per maker, multiple choices
        - Buying from established makers gives you 
          massive sales and support infrastructure
        - As market grows Tesla might have trouble reaching scale
        - Tesla has a 3 to 5 year window to become mainstream
        - If they fail at that they might well become irrelevant
        - Battery manufacturers (Panasonic, etc.) will support
          large car makers
        - Car manufacturers know how to make cars by the millions
        - Ford made a million F-150 trucks last year
        - That's just one maker and one model
        - They have the factories, people, process and product know-how
        - Electric cars far easier to build than IC cars
        - Tesla might be reduced to the Ferrari/McLaren of the industry
    

Better for the environment:

    
    
        - Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty battery manufacturing
        - Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty battery disposal
        - Nobody talks about/quantifies dirty electricity generation
        - It's like leather:  Process is dirty and disgusting 
          but the end product looks beautiful and clean and
          nobody thinks about how it got there
        - Where is reality of environmental impact of 100 million pure 
          electric cars when considering the entire chain of events 
          that leads to manufacturing, using and retiring one?
        - I don't know the answer
        - Point:  Don't be too sure you are "clean"
        - Maybe you are...by a little bit
    

In all, today, analytically, I don't think electrics make much sense yet. Good
for you if you are OK burning cash on one of these things. Thank you. I think.

The inflection point for this industry is 100% connected to better battery
technology. No other technology matters one bit. We know how to make cars,
electric motors, transmissions and electronics. We need better and cheaper
batteries.

The minute a new battery technology (super-capacitors?) emerges with twice the
energy in half the volume at half the cost we will have dozens of pure
electrics to choose from. The infrastructure will be built as soon as
companies can start making money with them.

------
micheljansen
A lot of this is not that uncommon for other car manufacturers as well. The
"Premium" warranty of a used BMW also depends on the car being serviced at an
authorised repairer. Yes, it's the manufacturer trying to be more of an
"integrated" service provider and keeping the resale value up, but it also
ends when the car gets older. Most of those cars the go on to lead a long life
with aftermarket parts and repairs.

~~~
ghaff
I think the question is how practical third-party service will be (by
individuals or independent garages). As you suggest, the common wisdom that
I've always heard is that, if you want to hold onto a luxury car past the
warranty/extended warranty timeframe, that's great and can be a fun and cost-
effective auto--but only if you're handy and willing to spend the time or have
an indie mechanic who you trust. Otherwise, dealer service will eat you alive.

------
imh
This seems to be part of a larger trend towards controlling the things we own.
Cell phones, tractors, cars, and I'm sure tons of other things are moving this
way, where they're trying to make it illegal to root/jailbreak/service your
own property. Cell phones seem to be trying to move away from ownership in
general. What's the solution?

------
ck2
So super-liberal-progressive Vermont doesn't have a "right to repair" law?

Interesting Mass. is the first.

Should be a federal law.

~~~
castratikron
I was delighted to read that a right to repair law exists in at least one
state. I've been working to get one passed here (MN).

------
deagle50
Lease and all the complaints go out the window. Why buy when battery density
keeps going up? Not to mention the autopilot features and other tech.

Model S well equipped lease is <$1000, why the hell anyone without f-u money
would shell out $100k upfront I'll never know.

------
kayman
I don't care to own the car. From my point of view, it's a service I want
access to, to get me from point A to point B. Tesla makes that process
enjoyable.

Because Tesla leveraged software, like an app, I want Tesla to handle the
updates for life of the car.

------
Johnnybe
And now I know for certain I will never purchase a Tesla. What a shame.

------
Spooky23
It's pretty easy.

They don't want an aftermarket for the cars because the batteries will wear
out, essentially cannot be replaced, and you'll see lots of Teslas in the side
of the road.

I still don't understand why these cars exist. You pay a premium that vastly
exceeds the fuel savings vs a comperable gasoline vehicle. The warm fuzzy
feeling associated with saving the earth is low value to me.

They also aren't magical machines that don't break. A guy on my campus bought
one about 18 mos one and it's been towed (presumably to NJ or Boston) 2-3
times. There goes the warm fuzzy feeling about saving the earth!

~~~
mikeash
Why do you say the batteries cannot be replaced? Swapping a battery literally
takes five minutes. The cost of a new one is high, but will likely come down.

As for why these cars exist, it's simple: they're awesome cars. They're
powerful and quiet and have advanced technology. Never mind environmental
concerns, not having to visit the gas station is just very convenient.

Not emitting (local) pollution is a nice bonus, but it's pretty far down the
list.

~~~
Spooky23
They can't be replaced because they are extremely expensive, and no mechanic
is going to touch these thing without manuals and tools.

~~~
mikeash
Expensive is different from "can't," and there's definitely one company whose
mechanics can replace the battery.

~~~
Spooky23
It's all about ROI. You can make a case for almost any conventional repair,
save a transmission or engine overhaul.

When a battery replacement exceeds the value of the vehicle, and the one
source of mechanics is incentivized to sell a new car, the economics will
never make sense.

~~~
mikeash
Much will depend on exactly what batteries cost in 10-15 years, or whenever
the current batteries start to fail.

If they still cost $25,000, then yeah, that's probably going to be a poor
value proposition.

If they cost, say, $5,000, then no problem!

If Tesla and others start selling ~$35,000 cars with 200+ mile ranges in the
next couple of years, then I think it's going to be closer to the latter
scenario. But it's hard to know for sure.

------
kuschku
This is an interesting topic.

And an interesting idea for a hack: Hacking a Tesla Model S to work without
any connection to Big Brother, eh, Tesla, I mean.

~~~
martin_bech
But you want a connection to Big Brother, you want free super charging, you
want software updates, you want free internet access and navigation, you want
the free Spotify Account.

My Car wouldnt have AutoPark, Summon, Traffic Aware Cruise Control, Lane
Assist, Spotify, Autopilot, 50 ekstra Horse Power and so on, without the
software updates the connection to Big Brother provides. (Euro Spec S85D)

~~~
dingo_bat
How is the extra HP related to the Big Brother connection?

~~~
sahat
I don't remember the details, but in one of the recent updates they increased
the performance at top speed and initial start (below 3 mph). Prior to that,
85D and 90D (all-wheel drive configuration) got a significant boost to its
0-60 performance via a software update.

Since all the hardware is controlled via a software firmware, they are able to
tweak the voltage supply of each motor to decrease or increase output
performance.

------
Animats
Just think of it as customer engagement. It's like calling slavery "job
assurance".

------
pravda
I don't think anyone who buys a Telsa for 100 grand cares the slightest bit
about being forced to pay overpriced dealer service rates.

And it's not like a 'worn out' Telsa is going into the car crusher. Every part
is going to be pulled from it and sold on eBay.

I look forward to being able to buy a Telsa motor for cheap on eBay. Maybe in
2026.

~~~
gambiting
"And it's not like a 'worn out' Telsa is going into the car crusher."

Well, it actually might. The article mentions it - if a car is deemed a "write
off" by the insurance company(because cost of repair is quoted as >50% of the
value of the car) then only Tesla can re-activate it. It's crazy, my dad used
to have a car repair shop any buy dozens of cars that were "written off" by
insurance companies, he would fix them, they would go through an official
check-up process to be allowed on the road and that was it. He never had to
ask Mercedes or Honda or Audi to "reactivate" their cars.

~~~
pravda
What happens to cars that are written-off and not bought by your dad or
someone else who wants to fix them up and get them back on the road?

They go into the car crusher, but only after every part with any value is
stripped from them.

(Yes, I agree that a functioning Telsa car is worth more then a bunch of Telsa
parts)

If Mercedes could prevent people from buying written-off Mercedes cars, fixing
them up and re-selling them, they certainly would!

Telsa can do this, and they have a phony-baloney reason for doing this
(safety! protecting the children!), so it makes sense for them to do it.

And also, this is good for Telsa-buyers. If I spend 100-large, or 70-large on
a Telsa, I don't want the hoi polloi to be able to purchase value-priced
Telsas!

It's a win-win-win. Telsa gets more money, Telsa-buyers get a more exclusive
brand, and hackers get cheaper Telsa parts on eBay!

------
njharman
Haters gonna hate and short sellers gonna drum up FUD.

~~~
wetmore
So you're saying this guy's blog post is part of a conspiracy to drive down
the price of Tesla stock?

------
gcb0
it's a $100+k car.

it's a luxury, anyway you look at it, not a necessity for anyone.

it's not the same as a car but the same as a money pit Lamborghini.

stop trying to make Tesla happen so hard, internet yuppies.

