

Nintendo to ‘Hobbyist’ Developers: No Thanks - ootachi
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/03/21/nintendo-games

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gergles
Hobbyist developers to Nintendo: "We don't care, we're going to develop for
your platforms whether you want us to or not."

"Also, in doing so, you're going to force us to completely reverse-engineer
your protections and enable trivial piracy."

(Granted, this would almost certainly happen whether hobbyists were welcomed
or not -- but by shunning them, they give the actual people with skills
reasons to look for weaknesses. Nintendo consoles are all trivially piratable,
even the latest and greatest games, and were almost instantly after each
console's release. The only one that has stayed intact is the DSi (probably
because there's no worthwhile DSi-exclusive software))

~~~
jbermudes
Yup. The homebrew scene is often the one that does all the hard work and the
pirates reap the rewards of the broken security systems (Notice how the
security system of the PS3 wasn't broken until well after the Other OS feature
was removed and the community wanted it back).

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endergen
It's crazy as a strategy. A good metaphor is that Nintendo use to target Games
more towards kids even though aging gamers who were loyal for decades were
pissed about that direction. But it seemed like a smart strategy because are
the next batch of hardcore games.

Nintendo is effectively saying fuck you to 'kids' Indie devs, and only dealing
with 'hardcores' Mature gaming shops. It's dumb because all the up and comers
are going to cut their teeth on Android/iOS and not switch because of their
invested time in developing their skills.

Le sigh, Nintendo, le sigh.

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mcantelon
Now that the iPad 2 is being heralded as the successor to consoles, Gruber's
going after them in addition to his regular Android sniping? ;)

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sdoowpilihp
I read somewhere about how this is an attempt by Nintendo to control
"quality". I would almost believe that claim if there wasn't so much
shovelware for the DS.

~~~
primigenus
Satoru Iwata gave a keynote at GDC in which he explained Nintendo's current
philosophy and strategy around "garage developers".

It basically comes down to this: Nintendo wants to protect the traditional
videogame market because it views it as a market of craftsmanship. By that
they mean that when you invest in the development of a game, you price it
accordingly, and that has led to the current market, which to some extent is
healthy (certainly on Nintendo platforms).

Compare that to the App Store market where prices are low and, on other mobile
platforms like Android, sometimes free, developers have less incentive to
invest much as the expected return on investment is less stable. Sure, there
are huge hits, but the long tail of the market is full of low-cost, low-
investment stuff. Or as you called it, "shovelware".

I for one see Iwata's point of view and although it differs substantially from
Apple's, I think both companies serve different markets, with different goals
and ideals, and both can exist. That's why Reggie says they're not currently
interested in serving that market. It's a different market.

~~~
Tiktaalik
I think keeping shovelware out is a fair concept, but they should give
interested parties more freedom to play around with their platform and make
demos. As it stands many of the rules for being a Nintendo developer are
arbitrary and it keeps out talented folks. For example you must have an office
and you can't work out of your home. That alone could be enough to drive a
startup into working on the iOS instead of the 3DS.

I'd like to see Nintendo have some sort of arrangement for hobbyists to poke
at the platform and make neat stuff, and for Nintendo to partner with them to
publish a quality title if something of quality is present. This is similar to
how Argonaut and Nintendo started working together and how Nintendo came to
produce Star Fox.

~~~
9999
I don't think keeping shovelware out is a valid explanation for this blanket
rule. Apple's ToS have quite a few provisions that could be used to exclude a
large amount of shovelware from the app store, but they tend to be rather lax
on enforcement unless it competes directly with their business interests. Thus
you get 50 fart apps and only a couple of web browsers. Nintendo could easily
adapt similar ToS, strictly enforce them and keep out the shovelware. Their
decision to exclude this possibility entirely indicates something else is at
work in their thinking. If you look at the controversy surrounding Bob's Game
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game>), it seems pretty obvious that
their issues with the "garage developer" have little to do with keeping out
mediocre titles. I would suggest that the blanket rule has more to do with
their long term business interests--keeping prices up and preventing
competition with their own first party games.

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zdw
Re: Consoles Microsoft already allows indie programmers on the Xbox 360 for
$99/year: <http://create.msdn.com/en-US/> (warning, Silverlight on that page)

They can charge up to $5 for their games, and they get stuck in a ghetto
that's kind of hard to find on XBL, but it's out there.

The PS3 is much more locked down - the linux alternative was removed.

There are also a whole lot of "Homebrew" scene's out there - some have turned
out impressive stuff. If the console can either load homebrew with no other
work (as the Dreamcast was) or can have modified bootloaders that allow 3rd
party code to run (as the original Xbox and PSP were), then you have a good
chance at getting decent stuff ported.

~~~
Tiktaalik
In the past Sony released a special PS1 that you could develop games on called
Yaroze. It started the careers of a few hobbyists and a game for it, Devil
Dice, ended up getting a retail release
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dice>).

The Japan only Bandai Wonderswan had a homebrew system as well, named Wonder
Witch. "Judgement Silversword" was published at retail for the Wonderswan but
produced originally via this homebrew system and it is considered to be one of
the best games for the platform.

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gs8
For a console maker it's a good policy. Not only will it keep "fart apps" away
it also is a good incentive for game publishers to invest in a game rather
than turn it out asap at the lowest cost possible.

~~~
ootachi
But game publishers don't do this, and haven't for years. What they do is
_precisely_ to "turn it out asap at the lowest cost possible".

~~~
gs8
I should have phrased it better.

They do that but still spend resources on actually developing proper product.

They don't look for a "rockstar developer" and turnout a awesome app/game with
a budget of $1,000.

------
9999
In other words: "Nintendo continues long, slow death march to irrelevance."

~~~
dermatthias
Irrelevance?

They really did something new with the Wii controls, landed a huge hit and
Sony/Microsoft are only recently getting back with similar controls (Kinect,
Move). I think they deserve a point here.

The Wii is still the best selling console and the DS the best selling
handheld(by far!). Perhaps it's irrelevant from a HN pov, but certainly not
from a familiy/kids/recreational gaming pov.

And the major games from Nintendo itself (Mario Galaxy, Zelda....) are rock
solid, high quality games.

~~~
9999
I can't really disagree with your points there, because they are not
irrelevant yet, certainly not to consumers. If you are a producer of third
party software, they are rapidly becoming irrelevant despite the huge install
base. Perhaps they can continue to succeed once they've lost all third party
support (other than the shovelware), but that's not a bet I would make as an
investor. If it weren't for their success in the handheld market, they
probably would have folded in the early 00s, and now they have very fierce
competition in the handheld market.

~~~
rgbrgb
There's nothing to indicate that 3rd party developers aren't happy and
profitable. With as large an audience as Nintendo's it seems unlikely that
studios with the capital to enter that market would walk away. While I totally
relate to the indie dev perspective (being an indie dev who'd love to make
something for the DS), their Hollywood high barriers to entry do protect
consoles from some of the ridiculousness that goes on in the mobile app
stores. That said, consoles are definitely missing out on many small and
wonderful things that are handcrafted by small teams.

~~~
9999
[http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-admits-third-party-
wii-s...](http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-admits-third-party-wii-sales-
are-poor-185270.phtml)

Unfortunately the source for that article is buried behind a registration
wall.

If you are pushing out shovelware, I'm sure that's profitable, anything else,
not so much. Sega in particular has had some really bad luck on the platform.

