
Ask HN: How do detect a crappy boss / toxic environment when interviewing? - isuckatcoding
I am currently working in a position that felt like a great startup to work at during my interview. However, a few months into the job I realized my boss was a complete and utter asshole. Given this is my first job out of college, I&#x27;ve stuck with it and I am looking for a new role. How can I detect during the interview &#x2F; research phase to avoid such situations?<p>Some things I&#x27;ve been doing is looking at Glassdoor but the problem with that is the reviews are highly dependent on the role, or the department or some manager who may or may not still be at the company.<p>I am a pretty average developer which is why I was kind of desperate for that first job out of college but after getting more experience, I know I can do better than this.
======
bpchaps
-If respect isn't reciprocal, run.

-If you only get canned questions, run.

-If questions are machine gunned without any followups, run.

-If the hiring/interview process is needlessly complicated, run.

-If they give you an IQ test or similar, run.

-If they're not paying attention [0], run.

-If a pattern exists of mistakes (forgot to call, etc), run.

-If, when discussing pay, HR says "Yeah, sometimes we hire people knowing they won't last and only fit a political agenda."..... run. True story.

-If the recruiter tells you, "The path you're going down will lead to failure unless you do a startup. Frankly, I don't see you doing a startup"... run. Also true story.

..Ultimately, it comes down to gauging how "human" they are towards you. If
the interviewer[s] lacks empathy, it's a sign somewhere up the chain that
something's not right. Mind you, that's not to say that the interviewer
doesn't necessarily have empathy.

[0] Seriously, this happens at about 20% of my interviews. Put away your
fucking laptop and just listen, interviewers!

~~~
jotux
>If you only get canned questions

>If they give you an IQ test or similar, run.

I ran across this study a few months ago that says IQ-like tests, structured
interviews (canned questions), and work-sample evaluations were some of the
few useful interview tools for selecting good employees [1].

[1].
[http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%...](http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%20Validity%20and%20Utility%20Psychological%20Bulletin.pdf)

~~~
jraines
Curious about OP's assertion on this as well. Only one I ever got was from a
company widely regarded as one of the best to work for in Atlanta (I ended up
not taking their offer so I can't say).

Unrelated to that -- one of my personal red flags is poor handling of the post
interview follow up. If a company drags their feet, gives conflicting signals
about next steps, etc., they probably are a mess.

~~~
pfooti
Speaking as someone with a cognitive science background (and yes, probably too
lazy to dig up specific references), I'll say that there exist a _lot_ of
poorly designed or poorly implemented tests of "intelligence". Even the
concept of intelligence is poorly defined, and lots of different measures are
just proxies. Even if the test is good and has some psychometric utility,
often giving the test is a giant pain to do well.

Even if the test is good, it's probably calibrated on WEIRD [0] subjects, so
is really only good as another kind of gatekeeper - you can probably use old-
school IQ tests as an excuse to reduce diversity. People who aren't WEIRD may
not do as well on these tests (even though they're just as "intelligent"
(parenthetically bracketing the ill-defined term for a moment)), so you have
your reason that you only hire white dudes. But that's a cynical extension of
logic there.

Most people, when approaching a psychometric test like one of intelligence or
personality make the first incorrect assumption that modern cognitive science
can actually form a construct like "personality type" or "intelligence" that's
stable across all cultures and norms, testable, and repeatable. That's just
not really true, and by and large what makes it to public consumption is
pseudo-science.

Diverting just a little bit here, but MBTI [1] is another good example of bad
use of psychometrics in business. There's about as much science supporting
Myers-Briggs tests as there is astrology, yet people still use MBTI for actual
decision making. Types aren't shown to be stable and they're not well-
clustered (meaning you can be a mix of introvert and extrovert, or show signs
of both depending on the day, context, mood). Zodiac Sign and MBTI Type should
only be used as pick-up lines in a bar. "Hey, babe, I'm an INTJ, so I'm not
going to say anything else."

There are good uses of psychometrics, but they're rare enough that I take any
reliance on any kind of psychometric during hiring as kind of a bad sign.

0: [http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/primate-diaries/the-
weir...](http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/primate-diaries/the-weird-
evolution-of-human-psychology/) 1: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/give-
and-take/201309/go...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/give-and-
take/201309/goodbye-mbti-the-fad-won-t-die)

~~~
disgruntledphd2
To be fair, I think that Raven's matrices probably get around this. If someone
explains the process to you, you don't actually need to be able to read to do
well on the test.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices)

I do find it surprising that Raven's appears to be more susceptable to the
Flynn effect (people keep getting better at IQ tests, for an unknown reason).

Completely agreed on the MBTI, but its surprisingly difficult to convince
people that's its useful.

FWIW, I agree with most of what you said above, I was just pointing out a
counter-example. (Psychologist/psychometrician here).

~~~
pfooti
Yes, I agree that Raven's matrices are pretty good at measuring something in a
way that's not super-reliant on language. I'm not inherently opposed to the
notion of generalized intelligence as a construct either, I just think
measuring it is pretty tricky. The Flynn effect is another great example -
these instruments are nuanced, and it's important to really understand them in
order to interpret their results.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
Totally agree, I'm somewhat in sympathy with Shalizi's argument that g is just
the result of iterated factor analysis. That being said, done well, these
kinds of tests can provide useful data, especially if you're willing to
randomly hire to calibrate performance (which no one ever is, sadly).

------
salsakran
On some level, you never really know. People often behave differently when
interviewing (or trying to close you) than normally, let alone during
stressful periods.

The low hanging fruit here is:

* ALWAYS spend time with your future boss prior to accepting. Ideally try to spend as much time as you reasonably can. If this isn't possible push back pretty hard about why. Your direct manager is usually the biggest reason for your unhappiness at a job. "People don't leave jobs, they leave bosses" is a cliche for a reason.

* If people seem unhappy when you interview, don't assume it's just how they feel that day.

* Make sure you get a sense for the culture and whether you want to be part of it. If you're not into constant group activity, make sure you're not joining a hyper-intense "everyone hangs out with each other all the time" sort of place. Conversely if you're new in town, don't join a company where everyone is focused on working hyper efficiently and bouncing to go home to their families. Neither is right or wrong, but they can definitely be right or wrong for you.

* If you're connected, track down people who left the company and ask about your future boss. Were they hard to work with? Do people like them? If you have friends at the company (ideally, not reporting to your potential boss) ask about how your boss (and the department) is perceived by the rest of the company.

* Hit up linkedin and track down ex employees, ideally in the same job role. See where they ended up, and hit them up and ask why.

Good luck!

~~~
mundo
> ALWAYS spend time with your future boss prior to accepting.

Agreed, this is really effective albeit sadly not very common. You could say
something like, "Hey, I thought the interview went really well, but I'd like
to get together for an hour or so and just talk about software methodology and
about your company's products to see if we're on the same page," but what
you're really doing is interviewing your new boss. I don't think any good
hiring manager will turn down a request like this.

------
Homunculiheaded
Here's an interview question I always ask that has worked pretty well:

"If you could wave a wand and instantly change one thing about this
company/job/team, what would it be?"

This is similar to "what is wrong" but frames it in a positive light, so
people are more open and creative.

If the answer is anything about people "I wish communication was better", "It
would help if more people were on board for this project", "A change in
management wouldn't hurt, haha j/k" etc. That's a red flag.

If it's about non-people "I wish we didn't have so much legacy code", "I would
love it if we could get our testing setup better", "There are no good places
to get coffee around" that's a good sign that aren't major people problems.

If they can't think of one, that's a real cause for concern!

This is one of my favorite questions in general because what people wish for
tells a lot in many ways about the major problems, but without people begin
guarded. They're fantasizing not venting.

~~~
f0rfun
Can you explain why if it's anything about people, it's a red flag?

If anything, the social aspect of a job is equally or more important in my
search for a job.

~~~
ridgeguy
Don't know wrt the OP, but I think people problems are much more difficult to
remedy than problems rooted in technology.

------
geoelectric
One basic way is to ask your interviewers what they like about their job.
You're going to get a positive response, but is it hand-wavy or specific? Is
it too specific, like they're just cherry-picking the one thing that keeps
them employed there? Is there light in their eyes or are they reading a
script?

Another way is to ask how decisions get made. Again, the specific answer is
going to probably be something pretty non-controversial, so look for the
subtleties.

Sometimes it's just obvious that it's too risky. I had one interview where the
hiring manager's boss managed to freeze him out of his own loop. I ran from
that one.

Also, you should be very skeptical if you felt like your interviews with
individual contributors were lukewarm or poor but you still get the offer.
That's very possibly a boss overriding flags from his team, or a team that's
deadened enough to not throw flags in the first place. If _you_ don't feel the
interview went well, trust your gut--might not be just your fault.

~~~
phonebanshee
Yes - and be very direct about this. Ask them "So why do you like this job?
Why is this a great place to work?" I've had someone pause, look at me and
tell me why it was a bad place and I should run away.

~~~
geoelectric
I had a hiring manager make me an attractive offer--and then in the next
breath tell me that he was planning on leaving the company, and I should run.
The gist was "my boss is watching so I have to make the offer, but he'll pop
into your office at 4PM and tell you you're working until 9PM on a regular
basis and otherwise interferes constantly. I've been unable to protect my team
from this. You can do better."

I sent him an explicit "thanks for the generous offer, but I've chosen to go
elsewhere after consideration" email so he had something to forward, thanked
him kindly privately, and ran like hell.

It's pretty amazing what you'll run into across a career. I've probably seen
more WTFs from the hiring side of the table than from the people I've
interviewed to hire.

------
throwawaytrain
I too have recently started a new job. I had a phone screen with the hiring
manager, then met with him for a two-hour 1-on-1 interview. Some time later I
was given the offer and accepted it.

I never met any of my future team members. I asked the hiring manager during
the interview to introduce me to the team, but he said this wasn't going to be
necessary.

Now, a few months into the job, I must say that I've never worked on any team
composed of such antisocial people. Pretty much no one here communicates
effectively. Cliques are demarcated along racial lines; there Chinese and
Indian groups don't really talk to each other, and don't "accept new members"
that don't speak their language.

This is the loneliest place I'd ever worked. What's surprising is that I never
thought I could be so lonely at work of all places.

So, lesson learned: if you aren't allowed to do a meet-and-greet with the team
before accepting an offer, don't even think about taking it!

~~~
balls187
> Chinese and Indian groups don't really talk to each other, and don't "accept
> new members" that don't speak their language.

This is pretty common among both racial groups.

And, if we're talking about the US, it was common across pretty much every
ethnic group that emigrated here.

~~~
dba7dba
In this context it's the fault of managers. Sure racial lines exist but such
hostility should not be allowed to exist by management.

------
grandalf
Bosses can fall short in a lot of ways. While your intuitions might clue you
in to some failings, others are very difficult to spot. My advice would be:

\- Do the others on the team seem happy? Did you get to meet any during the
interview process? Do they seem to be happy to work there and comfortable in
the environment?

\- Does everyone seem to get quiet or smile officiously around the boss?
That's a big warning sign. It probably means the boss is a bit of a tyrant or
maintains an unhealthy power differential with the team. There is absolutely
no room for this kind of posturing in a startup.

\- Do you witness anyone coming to the boss for help with something? If so,
and if the boss responds in a positive way, it's a great sign. A good boss is
someone who is there to help everyone succeed and lend expertise when asked.

\- Does the boss say anything disparaging about the other team members during
the interview? Look out for indignant, judgy sorts of comments that indicate
that the boss feels shortchanged by the team he/she has (unless you are
explicitly being hired to single-handedly turn the team around).

\- Is the hiring manager, founder, etc., transparent about runway, the cap
table, and turnover rates? Playing it close to the vest about any of the three
is a very bad sign.

\- Do you see any VCs or investors stopping by uninvited and just hanging out?
If so that's a good sign and means there is transparency with investors (which
doesn't happen in all startups).

\- Are there "big company sounding" organizational titles like "Senior
Director", "Senior VP of x", "Senior Engineer", etc? If the company has fewer
than 200 employees, titles like these indicate a wide array of culture
problems, usually starting at the top.

~~~
HappyTypist
The last point can be unreliable, so use your own judgement. At my current
company people make up their own titles, so we have a "Vice President of
Engineering" and a "Chief Alcoholic".

~~~
grandalf
Those are fine, I'm referring to the minor gradations on each role, as in
Senior Manager Level 5, etc. Those are necessary in large, bureaucratic
organizations where working one's way up a predictable ladder is the goal. In
a startup, anyone who is more concerned with his/her title than with
experience and results is likely better suited for a large, bureaucratic
company where those HR-concocted titles are respected.

------
djloche
The best way is to interview your future boss in the interview process. Ask
about their management style. Ask about how many meetings they are in each
day, and the average meeting length. Ask about how they stay organized, ask
about what tools or systems they use. Ask about what recent technologies
they're excited about. Ask about the team and the individual team members.

When you are interviewing somewhere, treat it as if they are trying to
convince you and you need to ask a ton of questions to figure out if they are
a good fit or not.

Frame these questions in positive, generous light so you seem like you
genuinely want to work for them and are just trying to get all the details.

"What is the thing that most pleasantly surprised you when you started working
here?"

~~~
bostik
> _When you are interviewing somewhere, treat it as if they are trying to
> convince you and you need to ask a ton of questions to figure out if they
> are a good fit or not._

As someone who interviews quite a lot of engineering candidates: we ARE trying
to convince you. That is no secret.

We want to know what kind of an engineer you are. If you're good enough, or
show aptitude to make up the lack of any otherwise expected skills, we are
interested. Even if we decide to pass, you _still_ deserve the same attention
as any other candidate. Treating a candidate poorly for any reason is bad PR,
and perhaps more importantly signals internal consent that it's okay to be
rude. That sets a bad example. (You do that once, don't get told off, and soon
enough others have picked up on it because who would want to spend any more
time on candidates we won't hire?)

When it comes to hiring, _everything is PR_.

------
noah__
I have about 12 years of exp. Have worked with all kinds of companies
startups\bluechips\valley\wall st etc.

Over time I have reduced paying attention to what they are dangling in front
of me, be it compensation or interesting stuff I want to work on.

I now mostly pay attention to the people. Specifically the quality AND loyalty
of people to the firm\manager\founder etc. The AND is critical. If its just
one or the other I walk. So for example, if its a 3 year old team and there is
no one "smart" who has lasted atleast 2 years its a good sign to walk. If its
a 6 year old firm and there is no one who has lasted atleast 2 years it's a
great sign to walk. If there are people who have lasted and aren't "quality"
its also not worth it. My definition of quality is they are smarter than me,
or have done something I have respect for.

If its a new company I don't work with them unless I personally know the
people involved.

Why these rules?

Cause if the people are "right" the interesting work and adequate compensation
follows. Doesn't matter if the project fails your time with such folk is never
wasted.

------
crispyambulance
No, No, No, NO, No (to all the tips and shortcuts)

Your first job out of college has a high probability of being a bad fit and
this is especially true if you're desperate to just get hired. So, it didn't
work out... happens a lot. The important thing to do is to figure out what YOU
want out of a job/workplace and to assess what that potential job can do for
your career.

I think its a waste of time to try to figure out some minimal set of "red
flags" to use for future interviews. Just look at the big picture, there's no
single red-flag that will tell you definitively that a place is miserable (nor
is there a single observation that signals an awesome place-- foozball and
snacks won't make up for asshole-driven management).

Perhaps even more important than what you observe during an interview is to
really examine your own needs and expectations. SOoooo many people are unhappy
WHEREVER they go and always blame it on management, co-workers, the industry
or whatever. This kind of serial discontent is a sign that the there's
something wrong with the individual rather than their workplace(s).

~~~
judahmeek
Do you have statistical evidence to support your claim regarding serial
discontentment?

~~~
crispyambulance
No. I don't know why anyone would even attempt such an experiment. These are
very subjective topics and it would be hard to even pose a testable
hypothesis. My claim is based strictly on life experience.

All I am saying is that people who take on one job after another and remain
unhappy would benefit from some serious introspection.

In other words, as important as it is to evaluate potential employers, it is
just as important to carefully examine one's expectations and career intent.

~~~
seeing
Your words: _" I think its a waste of time to try to figure out some minimal
set of "red flags"_

Do you truly believe there are no signs for anything?

------
tomtomAmazon
Lots of good advice here. I'd like to add a key phrase thrown around a lot,
'A-players'. As in, "we only hire A-Players for our team." Or "Our team is
made of only A-Players. If we hire anything less then the world ends." Beware
when managers/cofounders/leads/directors say this. Your bullshit detector
should be going off at this point in the process because what they're really
saying is that they only hire people like them, egotistical, shallow, puts
others down, don't ask for help since you're suppose to know everything,
expect them to talk about themselves ALL the time, expect a lot of bullshit (i
noticed that a lot of 'A-players' resemble the 'bro' attitude). It is
difficult on the first 'pass' to avoid such a situation especially without
experience. A company I worked for explicitly targeted young developers
because of the long hours, cheap labor (coder monkey?), the koolaid is easier
to drink without experience. good luck out there.

------
fapjacks
I always ask my go-to "red flag" question to all my interviewers. Remember
that _you_ are the one that determines what red flags even mean. This works on
everyone but the CEO:

"If you could change one thing without veto, what would it be?"

If the person describes a technical problem, that's usually a good sign. Long
silence is usually good (but can also be a very bad sign if they just can't
pick one thing). Trivial nitpicks are a good sign. _Any_ complaints about
communication are a very big red flag. Also any complaints about leadership.
Obviously, if the problem your interviewer describes is repeated by any other
interviewers, that is a big, red flag.

Piece of advice when firing this atomic weapon at your interviewer: Do not
fill the silence while they think with any talk. Let them think. Let the
silence hang. That makes people more likely to dig deep for something they
really don't like.

~~~
JoshTriplett
If you were the interviewer, how would you answer that question yourself?

~~~
fapjacks
I think I know where you're going, but the point of this question is that it
is unexpected, which demands honesty from people in most cases. You can't
trust a recruiter's answer, but if you're a programmer being interviewed by
programmers, you can usually trust the answers.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> I think I know where you're going

No, I was genuinely interested in the answer. I wanted to see examples of how
someone might answer the question.

> You can't trust a recruiter's answer, but if you're a programmer being
> interviewed by programmers, you can usually trust the answers.

I'd also be interested in the answer to that question from a first-line or
second-line manager. Whether they answered it honestly or not, the answer
would likely be helpful as part of the interview.

~~~
fapjacks
Oh! If someone asked me that question, I would describe the one change I would
like to implement the most! You're exactly right, there are a few things you
can measure with this question.

------
fma
I've read through most of the answers...and this is one of the few times I'll
say it but most of the responses are flat out wrong. Employees at a toxic
company will bullsh-t the answer. I know because I've been the one to
bullsh-t. The company sucked so bad, the turnover rate was high and the ones
left said anything to hire good employees to try to turn projects around. It
wasn't that the coworkers were bad, or the managers were bad. But it was
executives with unreasonable timelines.

So how do you prevent this from happening? I personally avoid a company where
I don't know someone in it, or know someone that knows someone.

Additionally, there's a nice hidden feature of LinkedIn. You can search for
people who used to work there. At one company I interviewed at, I searched and
found that those who used to work there...the majority left within a year. It
tells you something. I had a sense during the interview that the turnover was
high, and again they would BS me about their wonderful culture. Then I spoke
to someone who used to work there and he confirmed my thoughts. Oh yeah, the
fact they were going to throw a lot of money at me raised a red flag too (the
toxic company I was at threw a lot of money at people too).

Good luck.

------
atom-morgan
Questions:

\- What do you hate about your job?

\- How unlimited is unlimited vacation?

\- What's the mean/median number of vacation days taken last year?

\- How have you shown that you value your employees?

\- How do you handle disagreements with potential hires?

\- If the team is split on a technical issue, how would this be resolved?

Company bullshit (bad signs):

\- "We want people who _want_ to work here. If salary is important we aren't
for you."

Uncomfortable answers to any of the questions, run!

~~~
techman9
The first one is especially important, I find. When I ask the question, "What
do you dislike most about your job?" or "If there was one thing you could
change about the work environment?", I expect an interviewer to have an
immediate answer prepared. If they don't, I assume that they either lack
critical thinking skills and are unable to independently drive change or are
expected to just follow orders. I don't have any desire to work at a company
where management does not respect input from employees and employees are not
encouraged to think about how things could be improved.

~~~
biot
Or management is very receptive and they have opportunities to point out what
does and doesn't work, and the things that don't work get addressed. Once
something is addressed, you tend to clear it from your mind unless the place
is filled with employees who really like to hold grudges, in which case being
able to instantly recall all the little wrong things might be a sign you could
end up with terrible coworkers.

Or having a canned answer means they've encountered this before and have an
acceptable response ready to go in order to cover up greater faults. If you
ask them and they immediately blurt out "Sometimes we work too hard" how
honest are they being? It's no different from interviewing a prospective
employee and they say "Sometimes I work too hard". Thus, an immediately
prepared answer is a very unreliable indicator. Just maybe they have that
answer prepared as experience has taught them to avoid being forthright about
the actual problems going on, because then they'd never hire anybody.

(Just playing devil's advocate. I really do think it could go either way,
dependent on their personality, how their mind works, how management operates,
etc.)

------
codingdave
Ask them directly -- don't phrase it "Hey, are you an asshole?", but ask them
questions that will help inform you of their approach to the organization:

1) What is your leadership style?

2) How do you resolve conflicts on the team?

3) Tell me about the communication style of the team.

If you get a chance to talk to team members without the boss being present,
ask similar questions - conflict resolution, communication, collaboration
styles, etc. This should give you enough information to judge for yourself if
it is a healthy team environment, or not.

------
BurningFrog
When I'm interviewing people, I won't come out and say what's bad about the
place, but when asked I will be honest with a future peer.

I think a lot of programmers are the same, so I'd ask the non managers
interviewing me what's the place is like to work at.

But... it's easy to "fight the last war" about things like this. So if for
your next job, you're 100% focused on finding a boss that's a decent human,
you'll probably succeed. But something other major will be wrong.

~~~
visarga
It's always something unexpected. You can only prepare for things you can
imagine.

In hindsight, you realize you care deeply about some particular aspect you
carelessly glossed over in the beginning.

------
edwcar13
I previously left a company that I thought was great until I realized they
just wanted cheap work and a moldable individual for both emotion and
creativity.

I too just got out of college and tried to find my first job out of school and
took the first offer. These are the signs that I picked up on.

\- Arrived to interview to find that what I applied for was not what I was
interviewing for ... RUN! \- When trying to get a straight answer about
benefits or how long individual training may be and getting a lot of "I'll get
back to you" and no one does... RUN

\- When waiting for your interviewers and recruitment has to come in and ask
you if you have already spoken to your interviewers (i.e. their late or no
show) ... RUN either they are way to up their own ass or just terrible at time
management which if it's your future boss means they will have no time for you

\- Last one promise, when interviewing and you get asked questions that you
know the answer you gave to be 100% and they say it's wrong and tell you an
answer that isn't correct. Run!

That interviewer or interviewers indirectly just told you that they dont
follow or are going against what the documentation stateted.(in my case how
elasticsearch is configured)

I.e. you will work in an environment that will leave you with knowledge that
is incorrect and useless to use in another interview.

------
HelloNurse
Apart from egregious assholes and dysfunctional relationships (like the
mentioned husband and wife teams), there are milder and more "diffuse" kinds
of toxic environment.

For example: within the company, IT is a second class citizen compared to
production, so as a new developer you would start at the bottom of the bottom
with no valid career perspectives. Low budget, bad offices, low pay,
appearance of overwork are clear signs.

For example: aberrant company culture. Excessive secrecy and/or security
measures (who do they think they are?), extravagant recreational resources
(are they actually working?), excessive luxury (not bad by itself, but you
want them to spend that money on your salary), excessive conviviality, etc.

There is a meta-warning sign about company culture: refusal to show working
conditions and procedures to you because of conscious "discretion" and
subconscious shame. Also, you could like, accept as normal, or justify because
they make sense in context some of the bad attitudes you are aware of, failing
to see they are a problem.

------
MalcolmDiggs
When I walk into a company (for an interview), I try to get a good look at the
faces of the developers there, and gauge whether or not they seem happy. I
figure "In 6 months, my disposition is likely to be the average of the ones in
this room right now". So if the average person is happy, I'll probably be
happy too. If everyone is sleep-deprived, pissed off, and miserable, I'm
probably gonna be that way too.

I always try to go out of my way to meet the team and shake their hands (even
if the interviewer didn't plan for me to meet anyone). You can gauge a lot
from just a brief interaction with people.

------
woodcut
You're looking for personality flaws more than anything, it's hard it detect
them if they're charismatic enough to paper over their lies.

First off, protect yourself, ask to see the contract, guarantee any agreements
for future pay/bonuses are in there, the contract must specify working hours,
time off and notice period etc. Ask to see the resume's of the team you would
be working with.

Orange flags come to equipment, books, resources. A good company will give you
whatever you need.

Red flags are arrogance, delusion, recklessness, bullying.

Ask tough technical questions, see if they admit they don't know it or rubbish
the question.

Ask about ventures, projects things that went wrong, do they blame everyone
but themselves? How many people have left in the last 12 months? Ask to speak
to them.

How much runway do they have left? less than 3 months is a massive no. Has
anyone ever been paid late?

Honestly, if they're smart enough you can't tell until you're knee deep.

~~~
mrud
I think all your requests are good and can help identifying issues except the
teams resume. Meeting your team etc. is fine but asking to see the team's
resume would be a orange flag for me.

------
unit91
I've had pretty decent success just being straight with people about my goals
and seeing what they say.

If I'm talking to other programmers and not management, I generally ask:

\- Are you happy here? Why?

\- Every job has little annoyances (important preface). What are some of the
things you wish you could change?

\- Do you believe your leadership is interested in your feedback?

I also REALLY try to observe the body language of the employees interacting
with each other. Even if I can't hear what's being said outside the interview
room, it can tell you a lot about the company culture.

------
trcollinson
So, what makes your boss such an "asshole" as you put it? I am not by any
means trying to prove whether or not your boss is actually an asshole, but
trying to find out why you think your boss is.

I have had bosses who I thought were horrible and many others around me liked
them. I have had bosses that I would go to the ends of the earth with and my
co-workers thought I was crazy. A lot of times it is personality and
confidence (in yourself and in your manager) which dictate how well you will
get along.

How to find the right match when you are interviewing? Well, how many dates
does it take for you to decide who you'd like to marry? Do you marry everyone
you date? In this business, I think it's best to not get too emotionally tied
down. You're going to move, and that's ok.

~~~
isuckatcoding
Ok so I can guarantee you this isn't all in my mind or some relativist
bullshit. This boss is the kind of person who walks into a meeting late, often
clueless about the topic of discussion, then yelling ensues because he's
confused or some feature wasn't implemented as he supposedly requested and
then he berates my team members in front of others and you can sense the vibe
of dog shittiness in the room by the utter silence that follows.

He is notorious at the company for being _the_ asshole boss. Just mention his
name once to employees (especially those who've been with the company for 2-3
years for instance) in other departments and while some won't say it out loud,
you can tell from their face they know and they feel for you.

I apologize for the swearing. In reality, I am actually the kind of person who
avoids swearing at all but this job is changing me in such terrible ways. Yes
I am angry and I am desperately searching for a decent company to give me an
opportunity where I can grow and contribute in a more positive environment. I
am not asking for a stress-free environment (stress doesn't signal the job is
bad necessarily) , I am asking for basic human courtesy and professionalism.

~~~
spinlock
Wow. Is there anyone ay the company you can talk to about changing teams?
Someone who's your boss's peer that you like and trust? Tell them it isn't
working out and ask if you can use them as a reference. You might be able to
change teams in the company but, if you can't, its always good to have a
reference.

~~~
isuckatcoding
This is going to sound like paranoia (and some part of it probably is). I've
thought about talking to perhaps HR or recruiting to see if I can move to
another department. However, I feel as long as this individual is at the
company, it will be difficult. This person is unpredictable. One day he is
happy. Another day, he is totally on edge and ready to shout. He might decide
that my lack of "loyalty" to him as a personal offence. He is close with upper
management (CEO, etc.) and he can easily influence them and potentially make
my life miserable.

You know its so funny. I love the company itself and the product. They truly
have some innovative technology (as cliche as that sounds).Though, I think the
lesson I've learned from all this is that I need to look at my manager(s) as
MUCH as (or more than) I look at the product or my salary.

~~~
spinlock
That sucks. Oh well, looks like you'll need to go outside of the company. Just
remember: don't badmouth your current company when you apply for jobs; just
say that your ready for a new challenge. No matter how unbearable your
position is, it never comes off well to gripe about it to the next person that
you're asking for a job.

------
AndrewUnmuted
For me, the _big one_ is whether or not the employer offers to give you a tour
of the workplace. If this is not offered up as a default, request it. If there
is any refusal whatsoever, run away and don't look back.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
>> I am a pretty average developer

I don't have much advice to offer with your main question, after all I'm only
a few years out of uni so I'm barely a step or two ahead of you on the same
road. But I have this to say: you're not "pretty average"; you're just
starting out. You'll get a lot better and then things will get a lot better
for you.

I also valued myself pretty low when I started out so I ended up with jerks
for bosses a couple of times, but eventually I built up the skills to have a
bit more choice on the teams I was working for. At that point I found a team
with a senior engineer who became a true mentor to me and taught me a metric
ton of shit I'll be using to the end of my working days.

I think folks in this industry make the mistake of valuing innate talent above
hard work. It's true there's people who have that sort of magical talent and
godspeed to them. The vast majority of us though have to slog it out, and
learn as much as we can on the job and as we go. What "pretty average
engineer" really means is "bursting at the seams with potential to be a great
engineer with strong skills" a few years down the line.

Also: good luck out there. It gets better :)

~~~
isuckatcoding
Thank you for this comment.

------
AnimalMuppet
When I interviewed for my current job, the whole (4 person) team did the
interview at once. Several times they talked smack to each other in the
interview - not mean, just having fun. Well, I can enjoy that, so I talked a
bit of smack to them during the interview. They hired my anyway.

When it's not done in malice, that can be an interesting indicator. It means
that the people on the team trust each other - trust that they can say such
things and have it received in the right spirit, and trust that the one saying
it isn't saying it in malice.

I wouldn't make this the only indicator, but it's an interesting data point...

------
hendler
Maybe interviewing elsewhere is only half of the solution.

We all end up in situations we don't expect. While bad leadership is hard to
overcome, it's a great learning opportunity. Now that you are there focus on
improving yourself.

\- improve your coding, on your own time or not

\- help your boss not be an asshole. or go above them. or manage them. That's
a skill too.

\- enjoy your paycheck, but save money

Hope that adds a slightly different perspective.

------
junko
Just got hired myself. And I consider myself quite average too so here's my
experience.

My first job fresh out of uni was in a corporate environment and while I
appreciated the professionalism that came with it ("Keep an activity tracker"
etc ... might horrify some people but I love making lists haha) but in the end
I only stayed for 6 months. It got too corporate and suddenly I realised that
a lot of people were actually feigning cheeriness when underneath they were
under mighty pressure from politics. I decided quite firmly never to work for
corps (that activity tracker should have warned me after all) and for a few
months I freelanced until I got broke. I thought I'd give big organisations
another chance and I'm glad I did. When I had the interview, it was typically
based on a set of questions but the interviewers were relaxed and made warm-
but-not-wacky jokes. I also remember the time when I had a sudden mind blank
during a presentation and they were really amiable with it and said that it's
probably better if I spend a day with the team and see if we're a match. That
was probably the moment when I knew that this workplace could be a nice place
to work in, because they seemed to recognise and appreciate humanness and that
the interview is not just about testing _me_ but also vice versa. So if it's
possible, asking to meet your future team and seeing what the reaction to that
is like could be a nice indicator of the type of culture there. And of course
the actual team meeting.

I don't think there's a proper list of how to detect toxicity, so I guess you
just need to keep an open eye and ear on everything which is why it's
important to spend some time in the workplace. Keep alert but at the same time
keep an open mind. Interestingly, a week after I joined my new workplace, the
organisation did some ruthless restructuring, but which top management was
very organised and empathical about it, for example there was an emphasis that
we could talk about it, and comfort those who are leaving etc. It was
unpleasant and initially I panicked thinking that I picked the wrong workplace
again, but in the end it was educational - a couple of weeks later, the
emotional negativity dissipated. I'm still new but 1.5 months later and I'm
still chirpy ... well I'll take that as a good sign.

------
studentrob
For me, over the years I spent a lot of time looking for the right atmosphere,
changing jobs once every one or two years. Then I noticed / worked towards a
change within myself and I think I am now better at recognizing a good match.
Unexpectedly, I am now also more open to more relationships in which I
wouldn't have engaged previously.

I know the ways in which I work best and I'm not afraid to let people know.
That confidence makes a big difference not only in who I choose to work with,
but also in how I work with others.

When gauging a new employer or coworker I decide mostly on feel. It's easy to
_recognize_ a matching relationship once you know yourself. That doesn't mean
it's easy to _find_ one.

It might not be true for everyone. In my experience, knowing myself helped a
ton, and I was the only one who could figure that out. I was always told this
growing up and had no idea what it meant. People telling me to "be yourself"
made little sense to me until I learned more about myself.

~~~
iamcreasy
How do I learn about myself? (Serious question)

~~~
studentrob
Maybe try changing some things up and see if you're more happy or less happy
afterwards...

If I had a solid answer that worked for anyone I'd be rich! Many self-help
books try. 7 Habits (Covey) and How to Win Friends & Influence People
(Carnegie) are two I liked.

Ultimately the question is individual, so the answer is too. I'll just say,
when you know, you know. If you don't know, keep looking. So long as you're on
this earth you have a chance to answer that question and many interesting
others. When you do, you'll look back and be glad you tried.

I'd also say that it's a lifelong process and it seems equally possible to
lose yourself. For me I was not always aware of when I started slipping.

I started doing meditation recently and found it helps settle my thoughts and
become aware of when my brain was thinking things I didn't want it to. The
book Mindfulness in Plain English [1] was recommended to me, and I'm about
halfway through it. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in becoming more
aware of themselves and others.

[1]
[http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html](http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html)

~~~
iamcreasy
What's the first thing you notice when you start slipping?

Now that your know yourself better, are you more aware you slipping and take
preventive measures early on?

~~~
studentrob
Q1: Covey would say there are some basic human needs. Physical health, money,
opportunity to be creative, challenge, social interaction. For me, absence of
creativity/challenge and onset of boredom has been a common theme. In the
future I'd guess I will be okay on that front and struggle with others.

Q2: Definitely. Some awareness comes from taking time to meditate, and some
comes from experience. I'm not going to argue I can anticipate everything or
that I've met all of life's challenges. That would be silly. But I do feel
more comfortable dealing with things day-to-day and feel less of a need to
plan/control the future.

------
CyanLite2
1\. When they're more interested in why you're leaving a company, run.

2\. When they negatively recruit ("Oh that other company sucks, you don't want
to work for them!"), run.

3\. When you look around the work environment and see everybody on 15 inch
monitors, run.

4\. When they have an applicant tracking system and they don't respond to you
after an interview, run.

5\. If they ask "What are you weaknesses?", run.

6\. When they ask "How much are you making now?", run.

7\. When their Glassdoor reviews are below a 3.0, run.

------
jbob2000
Trust your gut.

No seriously, if you have a bad/weird/odd/sketchy feeling when interviewing,
that's all you need. Your subconscious picks up on WAY more than your
conscious does and it notifies you through that "gut feeling".

So don't listen to what others in this thread are saying. Their advice comes
from their experiences, which may not match yours. Only you truly know what
you want.

~~~
seeing
It's bad advice to say "don't listen to what others in this thread are
saying". Having more data is better than having less data.

It's good advice to trust your gut; but as Nobel prize winning psychologists
discovered, trust your gut as an additional parameter to your existing rubric
of tests.

Don't trust your gut while excluding everything else.

------
hibikir
There are red flags to bad environments out in an interview, if the place is
really horrible. But looking very hard for problems in an employer during an
interview is a bit like looking very hard for problems in a candidate during
an interview: The more you have been around the block, the easier it is to let
those signals that aren't necessarily very strong to just take over, and that
leads to failure. The interviewer with the least red flags is probably the one
that is best at lying to you, or to himself.

So what I do, outside of tiny startups (where I'd not go regardless, as you
are in for years, and chances are you'll just be underpaid for the duration)
is to go look for former employees, and ask them why they left the place, what
sucks, what doesn't, and how generalized the problems are. People that have
left might overestimate how bad the place is, but better an overestimation
that you can temper than talking to someone that is still in love with the
place, right?

This mechanism has been pretty good for me, and you can show you are a well
prepared candidate by asking pointed questions about what the people that left
considered the place's most glaring weaknesses.

I have been fortunate enough to be able to do this a few times in my career:
In some cases, talking to my would be predecessor. It's helped me dodge big
bullets, either by avoiding employers altogether, or by letting me ask for a
different department/team in advance, avoiding terrible managers.

------
jankedout
During an interview it's pretty hard to gauge whether the environment is a fit
for you. You're focused on performing well and you often brush aside things
that would irritate you otherwise. This is why I recommend "courting" the
company.

I've had ~10 jobs and 4 of them had intolerable environments. In the past few
years I started vetting the companies I wanted to work at by getting in touch
with current and past employees. This can give you some insight on how the
place functions. I also request to visit the headquarters/office. Most
companies will accommodate this. If they don't, I end the recruitment process
because it's a big red flag for me.

bpchaps's bullet list is pretty good too. I've run into each of the line items
in interviews. Particularly bad for me was Twilio, where the pre-screen phone
interview consisted of two developers asking me trivia questions about various
technologies. After the first 10 minutes I wanted to hang up. I was glad to
not get an onsite. Right before Digg went under I interviewed there. There was
no receptionist when I showed up, so the first interviewer (lead dev) didn't
even know I was there. We started the interview 15 minutes late, and the
interviewer took phone calls during the interview. I was extremely irritated,
but I kept my cool.

Just remember, if you are treated in a way you don't like during the
recruitment process, then you'll probably be treated in a similar manner if
you become an employee.

------
mattzito
Here's my checklist:

\- If I'm asked a question, or asked to offer an opinion, do they seem really
interested in my response? Do they challenge politely/with an intent to gain
more info, or do they dismiss it?

\- Whats' the average tenure on the team? How long have people been there?

\- When asked the negatives or the challenges with the job, do they offer
substantive responses, or platitudes?

\- Are they interested in me as a person? Or is it just my skills and
background?

\- For the rest of the team, are they engaged? Do they seem to care about what
they're doing? Do their concerns/negatives about the job match what their boss
said?

\- What's the ratio of leadership to worker bees? Are there lots of VPs for no
apparent reason? Red flag.

It's largely qualitative, but I like to see consistency in temperament,
enthusiasm, understanding of the challenges.

Example: I interviewed at a company a number of years ago for an executive
leadership position. I met with four different execs, each of whom had a
different cagey answer as to why business wasn't doing as well as it could. I
opted not to join, as it "felt weird". Later I ran into someone I knew who
happened to have taken a job there who confirmed my suspicion that it was a
disorganized organization with a toxic atmosphere.

Trust your gut. If something feels wrong, it probably is, and don't let desire
to get the job override your instincts if you can avoid it.

------
RKoutnik
I wrote up an article about probing for culture in the interview [0]. Here's
the tl;dr:

It's really hard to pull out the truth sometimes. Those that aren't looking
through rose-colored glasses are outright lying to you. No company sends
disgruntled employees to interview.

It's important to figure out if the company has a plan for you. If the plan
seems like "Change everything, but without any power to do it", book it outta
there. It's totally OK to ask folks what they think about management. Again,
rose glasses, but folks usually don't have a cached answer for this one so you
could catch them by surprise.

I find one of the biggest indicators of "Do I like this place" is how
disagreements are resolved. Ask about those. Press for details, don't take
sweeping statements for an answer. Actual examples are best.

Finally, lots of folks make bad decisions right out of college. I certainly
did. Very few folks will hold it against you if your first job is a short one
(~six months).

If you've got any further questions, contact info is in my profile. I can run
a mock interview if you're up for it. Hope I helped!

[0] [https://rkoutnik.com/articles/Questions-to-ask-your-
intervie...](https://rkoutnik.com/articles/Questions-to-ask-your-
interviewer.html)

------
ben_pr
I have hired two to three dozen developers over the last 15 years for a fairly
boring developer job (finance) in a very big city (Atlanta). Here are a few
tips I had for making candidates feel comfortable.

1\. Find out as much about them as possible before they show up. Look them up
on Github, LinkedIn, etc.

2\. Target questions that are appropriate and related to the job. If the
candidate offers any sort personal info about interests follow-up with
questions and find out what they are really interested in, you should already
have a clue from point 1. If their primary love is talking about airplanes or
something else then writing code is not their first love.

3\. Make the candidate feel at ease as much as possible. Offer Water, coffee,
comfortable chair, etc.

4\. Have someone on their level take them to lunch. They can find out what
their potential future co-workers think of you and you can get some valuable
feed back from your devs.

If the person interviewing you doesn't do most of these things then you
probably want to run the other way. Remember your managers job is partially to
help you be successful and if he can't help you have a successful interview
then he most likely can't help you have a successful career. When you leave
the interview you should feel that this person has your back and will help you
out if you ever need it.

------
PaulKeeble
Everyone has different hangups in regards to how a company will treat them. My
personal tracer shots are always in regards to whether I can use the equipment
and tools and processes I want. Obviously the interviewer can give away that
the place might be bad to work with their questioning but I ask the questions
that matter to me to make sure they care about my productivity and autonomy
and if they don't I reject the job there and then.

------
timwaagh
I have never worked in an environment which might be called toxic or anything
that comes close. we don't do that this side of the ocean. however there are
still things to keep in mind.

-if they do scrum use jira have an open plan office or talk about estimates then those are big contra-indicators. if you get freedom about work times that's good.

-scrum is there to have better control over you aka big brother is watching you. same for an open plan office (especially if the entire team sits together). this makes for an environment where you feel watched all the time.

\- if they want you to come in at a specific time that's also because they
want to watch your entire work-day.

\- if they talk about estimates this often means a focus on efficiency and a
lot of pressure.

\- if they use jira then you won't have a say about what you will do and are
probably just a code monkey.

\- on the other hand, if they give everyone their own office, let people work
from home or give you more freedom about which time you come in then this
means they trust their employees and are a good choice.

\- if they ask you your opinion about things that matter then this is good too
(it means they are not just hiring you as a code monkey).

~~~
LoSboccacc
> _tons of niceties_

do place like that still exists?

------
mathattack
It's very hard to use black and white heuristics, because life is frequently
shades of gray. And there's a big difference between work as presented in
recruiting presentations, and what's it's really like. That's called Life, and
it's why we get paid.

2 things I've found that work:

1 - If it's a backfill for an existing role, find out if the person is still
is with the company.

1a - If the person who had it is still in the company, it's generally a good
sign, but ask to talk to them anyway. You may not get full information, but
you'll get some. (If they're just doing something else for the same boss, also
a good sign.)

1b - If the person who previously had the job left the company, reach out to
them and ask about the role. They'll usually be more honest.

2 - Find a friend, or a friend-of-a-friend who works there, and ask them. This
will get easier the more you work, as your network will expand. It's also a
good reason to keep in contact with everyone you meet. (LinkedIn helps a lot
on this, despite all the bad press that it receives)

------
BobTheCoder
I would add to other comments to watch out for people that believe their own
bullshit.

My current company I could tell that when the team lead talked about it being
Agile and using latest tech that he really believed it.

Because he believed it I joined, but now I realise he was willfully deluded.
So don't forget to watch out for this and verify what their practices are with
questions.

------
ares2012
This is common in your first job, so don't feel bad for missing the signs!
Until you have been in the professional world it's hard to know what
environments are right for you.

The good news is that now you'll know what to look for when you interview at
new companies. Some things I look for: 1\. A well organized and well run
recruiting process. If they can't communicate, schedule and work with you
during recruiting it's unlikely they can do so when you work there. 2\. Great
employee retention. People don't stick around for a long while at companies
they hate. Look for places where people stay for the long haul (at least 3
years). 3\. Personal connections. Talk to the people you know in the industry
and learn about where they work. At this point I would have a hard time
joining a company where I didn't know anyone since there is so much risk
involved.

Good luck with your next adventure! It only gets better.

------
isuckatcoding
Hello all. I want to thank you all for you amazing responses. Based on your
feedback, I have an excellent set of possible actions/questions I can take to
avoid my current situation. I know there is no fail-safe method but at least I
have some guidance now.

Also just realized my question has a typo. :facepalm: Looks like
isuckatgrammar too.

------
evanwolf
On the employers' side, a few studies showed very low correlation between
interviewer scores of candidates and employee performance ratings after
60-90-360 days. I suspect it's nearly as true in the other direction: that
interviews are little better than a coin toss in helping you know if this is a
great fit.

So this suggests a strategy to screen out obvious mismatches, sign on, then
abandon or confirm when you have enough information after a month or so. This
is one of the advantages of freelancing or starting under contract: both
parties have a chance to see how the other performs in the real world instead
of the artificial job interview setting.

So extract what clues you can from the hiring process but don't attach too
much confidence in their relevance to your ability to enjoy your work, to
perform well, or to advance your career.

------
LargeWu
One thing you can do is ask to see the space where developers are working. Do
developers there look generally happy? This is highly subjective and prone to
false-positives, but in general if everybody kind of looks like they'd rather
be somewhere else, take note of that.

Is there another developer in the interview besides the hiring manager? Do
they seem engaged and are trying to sell the job to you (a good sign), or are
they kind of disinterested (a bad sign)?

Are the interview questions adversarial? ("Solve this problem. Ha ha, that's
not right" \- bad) Or are they asking about you and your experiences and
trying to relate them to what you'll be working on. (good)

What specific aspects of your current workplace do you view as toxic?

------
kelukelugames
One question I've always asked after an offer is "Is there any reason why I
shouldn't take this job?"

One manager felt insulted and got angry. I took the job for other reasons but
he turned out to be petty.

------
peterwwillis
Ask about the other employees. Executives, middle-managers, future co-workers.
What is their background? How long have they been working in their group? Do
they have significant prior experience working in a position such as this?
What is their day to day like?

Ask to talk to people in the group you're going to be working in. What do they
think of the company, their boss, team lead, other team members? Are they
often asked to do more than should be expected of them? Do they love their
position?

If they don't offer or won't let you meet with the future team, this indicates
they really don't care whether the team likes each other personally, OR that
they're so busy they have no time to meet you - which is not good either. It
should also be face to face; nobody gets to know someone over the phone.

Finally, you can use probing questions to see how your future boss reacts.
Make a joke and watch their body language. Ask them both professional and
personal questions. Ask them how they would handle different work scenarios -
would they throw a direct report under the bus, or try to cover for them? Do
they micro-manage or are they hands-off? How responsive are they to
communication, and in what forms? Do they work with many teams or just the
one? Are they customer-focused or task-focused? Is their primary motivation to
get ahead in the company, or merely to be helpful?

Sometimes there's no way to know if a boss is going to be a jerk. But 9 times
out of 10, either someone else working there has noticed it, or they'll act
like a jerk to you with the right prompting.

------
munchkinlk
As a recruiter, I can tell you about the work environment but often times it's
only an overall view. If you have the opportunity to speak to employees that
is usually the best way to get information about the environment.

If speaking to other employees is not an option you will really have to lean
on the questions you ask during the interview. I would encourage you to have
standard questions for the people interviewing you, that way you have a
consistent way to rank a company or team.

Hope that helps! Lisa

------
kkapelon
The best way to detect this is to see the working conditions for current
developers. Then notice the vibe around the room.

Smiling people are a good sign. People that come to greet you and talk to you
(even if you are not yet hired) are also a good sign.

Refusal of that tour is a bad sign. People that seem grumpy, tired, or angry
is a bad sign as well.

You could also find a developer in the company cafeteria (or something
similar) after the interview finishes and ask him/her about the company

------
p4wnc6
Some of the main things I've noticed:

\- Lazily using "full-stack development" for every position as a means of
avoiding the hard work of actually managing people, providing meaningful job
descriptions, and respecting specialties. A company with a huge army of
undifferentiated full-stack positions is a major red flag.

\- Unwillingness to negotiate regarding private offices or remote / work from
home options for people who are not compatible with the noise & productivity
loss caused by open-plan offices.

\- Hyper focus on your salary expectations early in the process without
reciprocal willingness to share the budgeted salary range. This extends to
hyper focus on relocation costs or other compensation items too.

\- Jobs that don't provide relocation. Sometimes there are good reasons, but
many times it's because of cliquish culture and/or extreme cheapness.

\- Paternalism: does the management act like your vacation time, your pay,
other forms of compensation, or other perks are "generous gifts" doled out by
the company? Do they act like the company "is a family" and have weird
workplace cultural norms about key management "principles"?

\- Are all of the recent Glassdoor reviews 5-stars with unrealistically
glowing reviews that sound like they were written by a PR firm, and all of the
bad reviews are buried at the end and sound like what an actual human would
write?

\- Any unreasonable demands for access to private data about you, such as
statements about past income or addresses, test results for things like IQ or
personality tests. I agree with other comments that even asking for test
results is a bad sign, but even if the test results were legitimately useful
for hiring (they aren't), there's still the issue of distrusting some random
company with private data about you, or being skeptical of their network
security.

\- If anyone tries to talk you out of your financial requirements with lame
excuses, it's a red flag. For example, when I've countered lowball offers
before, I've had HR reps debate with me exactly which apartment buildings and
locations nearby I could live in at the wage they countered with. Anybody
prying into your private life like that ("hey I know where you should choose
to afford to live") is nuts, and you should run away.

------
nickconfer
The simple answer is realize your more nervous than the person or group
interviewing you. You may not be completely yourself as your nervous, but they
are being themselves.

If they act aggitated, aggressive, nervous, rushed, etc... Thats most likely
either their true personality or a real problem of their workplace.

When you ask to meet your coworkers are they nervous or friendly. Does their
boss say anything nice about them... Etc...

------
hacknat
Ask straightforward questions. The way people answer them is more important
than what the content (mostly) of those answers are:

Examples:

1\. Do you like working here? You should get an impression that the person
genuinely likes working there. If you have to drag enthusiasm out of them
that's not a good sign.

2\. What's your management philosophy? They should have one, or at least be
able to sound like they've given it some thought.

3\. Tell me about a time you disagreed with your manager or somebody senior,
what did you do, what did they do? What ended up happening? What your looking
for is a manager who is willing to admit some degree of political prowess. You
DO NOT want to report to someone who cannot stand up to their seniors, it can
be just as bad or worse than the overly political managers (the overly
political managers at least get somewhere sometimes, you and your team will
get resources, project wins, etc).

More like this. Whatever question you'd like a direct answer on. Ask it, most
likely you'll never get the whole truth, but the way these questions get
answered matters.

------
CM30
Look around on the internet beforehand, since it's filled with sites where
employees can post experiences they've had at other companies. You mention
Glassdoor, but perhaps some of its alternatives might be useful as well:

Like Rate my Employer
([http://www.ratemyemployer.ca/Home](http://www.ratemyemployer.ca/Home)), Job
Advisor ([https://www.jobadvisor.com.au/](https://www.jobadvisor.com.au/)),
Kununu ([https://www.kununu.com/](https://www.kununu.com/)) and The Job Crowd
([http://www.thejobcrowd.com/](http://www.thejobcrowd.com/)). Yes, all these
sites can be gamed if the company is persistant enough and floods them with
fake or coerced reviews, but they can also give some impressions on what
working there might be like.

You should also check social media sites (LinkedIn and Twitter might be good
places to find people's opinions on this stuff), as well as general mentions
of the company's name in general. After all, if a bunch of articles start
talking about how terrible the environment is on Medium, then that's probably
a giant red flag right there.

If you can find out, knowing the general level of staff turnover might be a
useful metric too. Does the company often get people who work there for a
couple of months and then quickly move on? That's a pretty good sign it's not
a great place to work. If you see a bit of talk online about how a large
amount of the team quit at once, or that staff turnover is high in general, it
often means something has gone pretty wrong in recent weeks.

As for what to see in the interview... well, I guess pay attention to the
working environment, the behaviour of the staff, etc. If it looks chaotic or
the employees look utterly miserable, then those could be warning signs in of
themselves. Of course, you might not be able to tell this (if a company is
very careful about their interview process), but that's pretty rare for
startups and small businesses.

Hearing a lot about 'culture'or 'company fit' might be a warning too, given
how often it means 'acts like the boss/other staff and shares
views/background'. As might the usual complicated interview procedures,
suspiciously low pay, the office being in the middle of nowhere, etc. And

------
analog31
Just an additional note: If they start disparaging past employees,
competitors, etc., run. They will have the same attitudes about you.

------
dba7dba
From my experience, I was lucky to have good managers that seemed ok during
interview and even after I started working. What changed my situation for
worse was new manager, either replacing my direct manager or being put above
my direct manager due to merger,change-in-structure,etc.

Then my situation took a dive. New managers usually don't like non-super-star
employees already there when they are brought in from outside. They didn't
hire you themselves. And they are under pressure to do better. So if you are
an average worker, you have a big fat target on your back.

All points on this thread were great. But you never know about life, what will
happen tomorrow.

So don't feel too secure or cocky when things are going well. And don't feel
too down when everything seems to be going against you.

------
agjacobson
By the way Glassdoor is subject to subversion by a company's HR. Go to
Theranos' Glassdoor postings and ask yourself whether the glowing reports
sound like they were written by employees, and further, whether it is
reasonable that they coexist with some of the rotten ones.

------
laxatives
Ask for something a little outlandish and maybe unrealistic, like taking a
sabbatical/working remotely for a few months while you travel (this probably
only works at a startup without a formal hiring process). If they are willing
to at least entertain the idea, its a good sign.

------
MagicAndi
Basically, you have to treat the interview as a two way process - they are
interviewing you, but you are also interviewing them. You need to look at how
the company has treated you from the moment you applied, and pick up on any
indicators that the organisation you're applying to is toxic.

I would look at the following:

(1) How has the company communicated with you since you applied to the
position? Has it been a single person communicating to you, or several, or an
automated process?

(2) How did you find it – personal or completely anonymous?

(3) Was there a telephone screening interview with HR?

(4) How were you tested technically? Were you sufficiently tested?

(5) Did you have to write code as part of your interview process? If not, this
is a major failing. If the company doesn’t know if you can code or not, what
is the point hiring you?

(6) How large was the interview panel? This is most visible way of assessing
how important a company views recruiting developers.

The interview itself:

(7) Were the questions asked relevant to the work you believe you will be
doing?

(8) Did the questions asked match the advertised job? If it doesn’t, it is
likely that the job advertised won’t be the job you will actually be doing.

(9) The interviewer’s personality and behaviour. Were you treated with
respect?

(10) Would you like to work with these people? Remember, in an interview,
people are on their best behaviour on both sides of the table. If you come out
of an interview thinking that one of the interviewers was a pain, then they
will be most likely be a complete bastard to work with. You need to trust your
gut instinct about people.

(11) How was the outcome communicated to you?

I've blogged about this previously at
[http://www.andyparkhill.co.uk/2015/04/the-software-
developer...](http://www.andyparkhill.co.uk/2015/04/the-software-developers-
guide-to.html)

------
alkonaut
Simplest way I know is asking about the employee churn. "How many have quit in
last N years"? If it's uncomfortable to ask a manager or recruiter then find a
team member and ask.

This is culturally and geographically dependent though. In a tech hub kind if
area, holding a job less than a couple of years isn't strange, in my home town
where an average tech employee is 45 and not 25, I'd run if the average
employment was lower than 5 or 10 years. So it depends.

If a third of the team quits quit last year that's a pretty good sign that the
environment is toxic. And it becomes only more toxic since usually the talent
leaves first.

Oh: also if you have kids - the killer question is "does everyone in
management have kids"?

------
Spearchucker
Some great answers and advice here. I'd add questions about behaviour when
things go wrong. For example, what happens when a deadline is missed? Who is
accountable (correct answer being "team", or "everyone")? How do lessons
learnt affect subsequent projects?

Took me a while to find a good formulation for these questions - during an
interview I now say something like "Facebook, Apple, Microsoft and the like
still miss deadlines, so it's a given that smaller outfits will, too. How do
you deal with missed deadlines, and how are teams affected by that?"

I look for more occurrences of "we" and "us", and fewer of "I", "he", "she"
and "you".

------
Bogue
First, Now that you have an understanding of the type of boss you don't want,
I would suggest trying to understand the type of boss that fits you. A bad
boss to one might be motivating to another. Ask questions like: How do you
support your team to be successful? Tell me about a time when an employee
impressed you? I'm an average developer now but want to be great, can you help
me get there? How? How do you protect your team from outside distractions?
(most importantly) Why did you come to work here and what are you looking to
achieve?

Not that these questions will fully determine the quality of the boss, but you
can get a sense for the empathy previously mentioned by how they answer the
questions.

------
sadadar
I'd probably recommend you use the same tricks a good interviewer does to
determine if you are a good culture fit.

1) know your requirements 2) use behavioral questions instead of hypothetical
3) trust your intuition 4) hold a high bar

------
fazza99
I interviewed at one place where the manager who was supposed to see me turned
up an hour late, sweaty from a cycle ride and said I was too early. He
consistently got my name wrong during the remaining half hour, and poured
scorn on his current reports.

\- If during the interview, they ask you if you have 'firing skills' and how
you motivate unmotivated staff, that's a strong indicator also. The company
was based 20 seconds from the edge of a airport runway. Repeatedly during the
interview, we had to stop talking as the noise from jet engines wouldn't allow
normal conversation.

------
matttheatheist
What do you mean by "asshole"?

During my first engineering job out of college, I had a crazy angry boss whom
you could hear yelling at people all the way across the building. I used to
dread having to meet with her (at least) once a week. I literally had to
remind myself that "no matter what, she cannot take my life". Yes, this was
ACTUALLY a recurring thought.

It didn't take long after I had already left that job, that I realized how
good she made me. Among my peers, I'm the top engineer, and she's the reason
for that.

Check out my company: www.evolutionarynetworks.com

Good luck!

~~~
bartvk
I feel you had to endure abuse, but in hindsight are telling yourself that
something good came out of it.

------
matchagaucho
Determine if they are a Manager or a Leader. Only work for Leaders.

"Boss" is just another word for Manager, so look in the mirror and make sure
you're using the right vocabulary to find what you seek.

------
pinewurst
I'd like to know the inverse. I accepted my current job because I really liked
and respected my boss (and still do) - enough that it obscured how
dysfunctional and mediocre the company was in general. I even turned down
another offer with more responsibility at another (name brand) place because
their hiring manager was such a dud by comparison.

I'm looking again to escape my current abyss but am just so paranoid that I'll
end up in another mess due to simply liking my boss & coworkers during
interviewing.

------
shin_lao
I use this rule for business, it never failed me:

If you have a doubt, there is no doubt.

------
soham
Always treat interviewing like dating, of-course sans the romance; especially
the one with your future manager/tech-lead.

How do you tell if the person you're "dating" is crappy/toxic? That judgment
is very subjective, by definition. e.g. I've had my fair share of people I've
found "crappy/toxic", that others have not. And vice-versa. You want to find
the person/manager that _you_ get along with.

The only way for you to truly tell, is to

1\. Spend more time with them _at the right time_ :

\- The best time to do so, is when the offer is made, but before you've
accepted it. That is your best time; most companies will do pretty much
everything they reasonably can, to keep you interested in that phase. Make use
of that time, to ask for more conversations with the potential manager/team.

I used to work in engineering at Box for several years. Box is very thoughtful
about their interview process. We used to invite candidates we liked, for
dinner with the team and multiple conversations with the manager. They were
also very selective about promoting people to management positions.

2\. Do backchannel references:

\- Hit up past employees on linked-in. Especially the ones who stayed at the
company for a long time. They'd likely know your potential manager and will be
able to correlate them with the culture.

Don't feel shy in doing so; it's routine. Of course, BNBR with their time.

Generally speaking, in interviews, you have to optimize for "fit" with "you".
Do the best you can in the time that you have, and then leave the rest to
chance. There are many good people and strong teams out there.

[I make these observations based on my past life as an early engineer at a
couple of companies, as engineer and Director of Engineering at Box and as
someone keenly interested in interviewing as a topic. These days, I pour
myself into running a bootcamp for technical interview preparation:
[http://Interviewkickstart.com](http://Interviewkickstart.com). We believe
that all good engineers deserve a chance to work for best companies of their
time, and interview preparation should not stand in their way]

------
munchkinlk
As a recruiter, I would say the best way to judge a company is by what the
current employees say. It's not always possible to speak to employees and then
you have to lean on the responses to questions you ask during the interview.
Have a set of standard questions you ask so you have a consistent way of
ranking the responses.

Before you walk into an interview or even have a telephone interview decide
for yourself what kind of company, culture and environment you want to work in
for a lengthy period of time.

------
nasirdani
Adding to what most of people said: 1) look how hard the technical part of the
interview is, if you don’t get any challenging questions (technical and to
some extend behavioral); you are most likely not going to learn and grow that
much if you get the job.

2) how the interviewers treat you when you are trying hard to answer tough
questions? If you see sympathy, it is a good sign; if they play bad cop and
good cop, run.

3) if they don’t ask you any personal questions it means they will not care
about you.

------
purpleD
I think this is the biggest factor when I take a job. Do I like the boss? I
say the beer test - would I enjoy hanging out with this boss socially. I'm not
saying I would, in fact I rarely have with my bosses, but someone who seems
like I could be friends with is someone I want to work for.

This has lead to me mostly working for bosses with good people skills which is
rare to find in tech. I hate working for socially obvlivious robot programmers
who can't solve people problems.

------
lhnz
There's no foolproof way of detecting bad bosses and environments.

What you need to learn is:

(1) How to deal with difficult people. It's very likely that you'll have to
deal with personalities and egos like this at some point no matter how
carefully you attempt to situate yourself.

(2) How to make yourself marketable enough that you can easily walk from
uncomfortable workplace cultures. At some point you're going to work with a
colleague or in a company that you cannot stand, so be ready for this.

------
cubano
Well then, do better and don't look back.

There is no shame in taking a first job out of college and realizing it wasn't
meant to be.

Working at your age should be akin to dating...you should have no guilt or
issue with realizing you acted without having complete information and perhaps
jumped into something that wasn't, in the end, right for you.

Why not start actively shopping a resume and talking to colleagues your age to
see where you could possibly land next?

Good luck, and keep moving towards a better tomorrow.

------
xivzgrev
What did your gut tell you? You said it was a great startup but what was vibe
from hiring manager? I'm willing to bet you didn't feel excellent about him or
her.

Its the best tool. I had a certain feeling about my curemt boss (like this,
don't like this) and its right on the money 4 months later. Just get a sense
from what they focus on (and what they gloss over), how they talk, their body
language, and more.

Next time ask how excited you are to join that person's team

------
tsax
Since this is your first job out of school, this tip won't help you
unfortunately. In any case, it's good to keep a buffer of 6-months spending
handy in savings (outside of retirement accounts, those should preferably
NEVER be touched outside of TRUE emergencies). Having a buffer-fund, you will
find, will keep your mind at ease and give you options to walk away from very
toxic environments. Good luck buddy!

------
tdicola
Assuming you're doing a typical full day interview loop pay attention to the
first few interviewers, they're likely more of the junior employees. Ask them
lots of questions about the work environment, boss, etc. Obviously don't come
out and ask 'is your boss an asshole?', have more subtle questions like
'what's the work/life balance like?'.

------
dr_jay
I compiled a list of questions and answers from this thread, around the web,
books, and personal experience and put them here:

[https://gitlab.com/doctorj/interview-
questions](https://gitlab.com/doctorj/interview-questions)

It's in machine-readable format (YAML) with metadata so you can filter and
sort. Would love comments and suggestions.

------
asimuvPR
If you want to practice interviewing, feel free to drop me an email. I like to
help others prepare for interviews and get new jobs. :)

------
peteretep
"So what do you do if you're coming to the end of a sprint and it looks like
you might miss a deadline?"

------
pcunite
We can tell you experiences we've had, but going through this yourself is how
you will know. You need this moment.

------
breathesalt
Don't ask the interviewers what they hate about their jobs. That's easy,
everyone hates their job. The best advice here is you should find someplace
willing to give you a small token project to work on. Find out for yourself if
you hate the place in that period of time.

------
edwingustafson
You can ask how long team members have been with the organization, to
tactfully get a sense of turnover. At a young company you might ask how team
came together: was it through past working relationships and friendships? or
the internet equivalent of putting an ad in the paper?

------
lnanek2
That happened to me recently. Everyone seemed great during the interview
process, but the company was a disaster.

Once I got in the door I found out all the code was originally produced from
outsourcing in Russia. So it had no comments and it had layer after layer
after layer of unneeded abstraction. So figuring out the behavior on an error
in the BLE back end communicating with a fitness tracker required tracing
through half a dozen unneeded classes like screen config beans, screen states,
the fragment state generators, to to error codes, to error messages, to
fragment subclasses, to flow subclasses, to activity subclasses. All with
if/else's for special conditions jammed everywhere even in things that should
be mindless DTOs and many parts never actually used and deep inheritance
hierarchies. It could all have been easily done with 40 classes instead of
120, with much simpler, more reliable code.

Lesson: ask the company about outsourcing history and plans.

Software engineering has known for a long time that abstraction over
composition really hurts maintainability and reliability, but clearly this
company never heard of that. Normally this sort of thing is fixable, but the
couple staff developers they had brought in tended to just write whatever they
thought would work, shove it into the app, then call it a day, not even smoke
testing, let alone writing unit tests. Developers frequently pushed code that
didn't even work in real testing on a device then left for vacation for a week
leaving others to deal with their mess. If you sent them an email with logs or
even fix commits, they'd call a meeting with management to try to discredit
you and block the fixes rather than working to fix the problems. And their
stuff simply didn't work on the devices, so there was no possible end goal to
their politics that would leave the app functional. It made no sense.

Even ignoring things that could be considered "style" they didn't have much
technical ability either. They thought changes to variables would be visible
on all threads as long as they used an Android Handler class on a background
Looper, but that's only true if both threads where it is read block on the
underlying event queue, which wasn't happening in their code. But they fought
the synchronization blocks that would make the value changes visible to their
UI logic despite logs proving their code was blowing by changed values without
seeing them.

Lesson: their developers will give you a technical interview, but be sure to
ask your own questions and determine their level as well.

OK, outsourcing, we can clean it up. Clueless junior developers, we can train
them and pair code with them and clean up up their messes. But management was
completely screwed up as well which kind of prevented any fixes. My manager
left at 4PM every day to go ride his bicycle and never came back. Meanwhile, I
took a 45 minute bicycle ride midday and worked until 8PM to finish a project
for the company during a month we were encouraged to exercise and be healthy -
he fought to get me in trouble for "long lunches".

Similarly, my wife drove two hours once to get me in without standing an hour
on the BART, so my back wouldn't hurt. She did everything properly, got a
guest badge, stayed out of restricted areas where we were working on
unreleased products, and got kicked out by the manager for talking quietly at
my desk with me and a coworker. He was panting heavily and claimed she was too
distracting for him to work. She left and never came back to the company ever
again, but he went right back to harassing me about her week after week,
talking about her and making up new rules despite the fact that she never came
back. Meanwhile he had reserved an entire conference room for his friend's
family to visit the entire day.

Lesson: not sure how to avoid this one.

The manager said all the right things during the interview, that management is
supposed to help employees get things done and get along with their team, but
he spent what little time he was on site harassing people. I guess because the
company had just IPO'ed the management was basically rich from their options
and didn't give a damn about actually working. I put in a transfer request
with HR who immediately fired me instead of looking into it. They claimed all
their managers were the same, which was a lie, since I walked around and
asked. So no clue of the right lesson for that one. Sometimes you just end up
with a bad company despite doing everything right.

~~~
theworstshill
What a shithole. Hope you got out there with some sanity left.

------
xupybd
There are some simple interview tips in the video below, I'd say if you get
these down you'll have nothing to worry about.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38cUwnkoDxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38cUwnkoDxk)

------
dbcurtis
Look out for a paranoid culture. It should be easy to detect. When you ask
questions, are there places people just won't go with their answers? Do you
get deflective answers? Are there people who don't seem to want to talk to
each other?

------
thefastlane
i once got through the entire interview process (salary negotation etc etc)
interacting with the person i thought would be my boss. i specifically wanted
to the job because i liked this person. but when i received the offer letter,
i discovered that someone else would be my supervisor -- it definitely caught
me offguard. and turns out it ended up being the worst job i'd ever had. i
wouldn't call the supervisor bait-n-switch a red flag, but now i'm now
hyperattentive to even the tiniest of hiccups during hiring. surprises during
the interview process can equal surprises on the job as well.

------
Abdirahman
Well I'm looking for a cofounder now so perhaps you'd be a nice boss to some
people if you start a promising startup with me. Drop me a line at rahman
(dot) aspro (at) outlook (dot) com if interested.

------
trhway
assume by default that it is "a crappy boss / toxic environment" and try to
find solid evidence to the contrary.

>However, a few months into the job I realized my boss was a complete and
utter asshole.

well, that is view from your side. Are you sure that you aren't the one too?
It is just a frequent situation that people are defensive in response to your
[as perceived by them] "offenses". It is one of the most important skills if
you're going to develop your career as corporate drone is to get used to work
with different people around you.

------
SideburnsOfDoom
The single best way is to have a quick off the record chat with someone who
works there or has worked there recently in a similar role.

This isn't always available, but it's worth a lot if you can get it.

------
kidlogic
Ask about the company's culture and ask whether or not you can talk to other
employees; their immediate response will be a tell-tale sign of whether or not
they're toxic or not.

------
kidlogic
Ask about company culture - also ask whether or not you can talk to other
employees; their immediate response will be a tell-tale sign whether or not
they're toxic.

------
verst
Try to find out who has worked for this boss (or CEO / founder) in the past.
Reach out to them to hear about their experience and find out why they really
left.

------
mcs_
If you don't want to work with them, for them to improve their system... just
run. If you don't want to meet assholes.. Change industry.

------
outside1234
Demand to interview at least your manager and your manager's manager. I ask
for the 3rd level as well.

~~~
joelberman
Agree, but also some of your future co-workers. If you think you hit it off
with one of the interviewers ask if you can call or meet for coffee. Having an
asshole boss sucks, but if boss also hired a bunch of assholes it is even
worse.

------
andy
Ask to speak with people who would be your peer. Ask them about the culture,
day to day life, etc.

------
known
Don't burn the bridge; Polish your CV and start applying for a job;

------
Jhsto
Ask for a raise from whatever they offer and see how they react to it.

------
the_cat_kittles
i think im pretty good at detecting it now, but i dont think there is a simple
way other than to work at alot of places. i will say that if things seem
toxic, they aren't going to get better (in my experience), and most likely
will get worse. so quit asap.

------
oldemployee66
best of luck

------
oldemployee66
1.)go with wisdom, NOT with truism rules -If respect isn't reciprocal, run. be
thankful you have a job. Some bosses are psychotic a--holes AND power alleged
SADISTS. 2.)read the book
[https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/03/22/hubspot-
book...](https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/03/22/hubspot-book-
unflattering-portrait-old-school-corporate-politics-new-tech-
economy/FVh4ayJZ5LMLdjoGXd9oIN/story.html)

3.)always ask about possibilities of TRANSFERS and other departments, even
contractors.

4.)give email address with I LOVE TO GET ANONYMOUS MAIL.

5.)sometimes you have to visit the bars and party places where the employees
hang out for some 'human tips' \-- know what i mean

6.)over age 54 or was it 49? first career out of a few was electric - gas
grid. FIRST YEAR IN FIELD, about three persons GOT KILLED or ?? and what waz
intereesting was they were not necessarily accident prone.

7.)look up the govbuerment stats. electric - like after the hurricane out is
up there next to coal mining.

8.)the CRAPPY boss is part of the overall package. define your framework -
ecosystem, QUANTITATIVE assessment of factors, etc. You are an A student in
Math, for top university, right??? sure??

9.)it's gonna sound real harsh. insert quote by Nitzzzkieche. the
responsibility AND THE ATTITUDE is yours alone. I've been amazed at how bad
and even how out of date SME subject matter expertise - great coding skills in
Microsoft VB - the crpola-boss gets and they rotate and TAG TEAM YOU.

sometimes, Its a 'sisten-in-law' who married the key customer VP so BOSS is
'royalty' YOU CANNOT TELL.

rule #10 - be really suspicous, if the 'secretary - admin assistant,
receptionist? doesn't give you the REAL RULES and culture of the company? It's
UP TO YOU to ge the truth out of them as in the book Disrupted.

oh s __ __ _t, no rules that are too easy to say.

_ buy the management books. Find out what the CRAPPPITO lord is reading. Only
then, plan your strategy.

-If they give you an IQ test or similar, run. no dumpkofff, I used to practice IQ tests and I go to Mensa, but no real good lookers there - if you know what I mean. THE NEW AGE is the PSYCMETRIC babble test. if you are not a 'quality focus PERFECTIONIST' then maybe U SHULD gib up 'developer position'?

Conclusion - Sadists?, possible racists?, sexists? been there done that - both
employee, consultant, manager, no I am not 'racist'... I think a __ __hole,
since I am a minoarity and used to STICKING OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB rolling with
da punches, mon! don 't let them know you have been hurt. Sometimes, it helps
to suggest other possible VICTEMS for the Mr. CARPPY-hole to attack.

the best books seem to be FBI related as to open questions and sniffing for
dirty dirties. The CODE is the company and the code smells? according to book
reviews on internet, the KGB uses the medieval tortures; the CIA uses the
outsource or rendition to other a-hole tortures like fine democracy Egypt; the
DEA uses the highly reliable informants paid for in cash.

the local sheriff grew up in the same high school, so he knows the ART-holes
as kids and has not changed his mind in 20 years, while he tries to get rich
on the fracking boomlet.

please refer to Fred Reed, lew ______rock __ __well __*com for useful travel
and adventure writings as old time journalists? used to bounce around quite a
bit.

hey, I like writing - code only in hh aa ss kk ee ll or give advice to
'nephews like you' or virtual sons making all the same mistakes I did when I
was young

loooooong time ago. fellow Art-hole in training!

remember, it 10% personal. U have been selected by fate. it is ALWAYS, THAT IS
THE RULE, 90% not personal. 55% divorce rate in USA. it still is 90% NOT
personal, its the system....

PS. Research is ongoing. I LOVE DATING BAR-MAIDS because they tell such
interesting stories.

PS. If you work in Wall Street, NYC, why are the go-go dancer bar close-by?

PPS. sure, I'm just an old, kinda introverted consultant. did startups, and
did part-time startups - sure I failed but some friends did succeed. IT AINT
PERSONAL, I just did the best I could. with the crabby bosses i got.

~~~
746F7475
These are like ramblings of a mad man

~~~
osgrimmy
Sometimes it's one small thing!

I had a senior member interviewing me not a manager ashe recently quit. at the
time I noticed he seemed annoyed and unimpressed. At the time I didn't think
much about it but after 3 months working there I realized I made a big
mistake.

There had been 5 others before me that lasted less than a year, some less than
6 months. This senior guy was a cranky, controlling, and micromanaged
everything I did. he was just a d$@k!

we finally got a manager at 6 months who seemed nice at first so I stayed in
hopes of change. after a month he started isolating individuals in the team.
he would start with one at a time and would start talking bad about them to
everyone in the dept. he would ignore them and isolate them from the team. he
then would start pulling work away and only give them boring tasks that was
well beyond their pay grade. one-by-one each individual would quit!

After 3 had left I was next in his hit-list. I took bullying and abuse for 6
months, I refused to let him win, and it was brutal. Isolating me from the
team by moving me to a corner section of the office. he would argue with me on
anything and would pull work away from me constantly. basically I was sitting
there with nothing to do, and if I did anything I would get in shit for not
asking for approval and if I did he would say no. unfortunately for him I was
well liked in the company and that seemed to Pisa him off more.

On my last 2 months I had enough and I would do whatever I wanted regardless
of what he said and he didn't know how to handle it! He would say "I told you
NO@ and I woild say "I'm tired of sitting there doing nothing all day so if
you have a problem with me working fire me!". it was so bad the HR manager
asked me why he has treating me like that for 6 months I told him he's a bully
and he's a terrible person. the HR guy agreed but said there was nothing he
could do but talk to a VP.. nothing happened.

One day, totally bored and miserable, I said to myself "why are you still
here?". I left, and I should of left at 3 months. they HR guy threw to a of
money at me to stay but I said there isn't enough money in the world to keep
me in this environment.

I keep I touch with a few individuals and he started bullying others and one-
by-one they left. actually one just asked me for a reference as he was
miserable and being isolated.

there are a lot of terrible people out there!

