
How badly are we being ripped off on eyewear? Former industry execs tell all - ilamont
https://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-glasses-lenscrafters-luxottica-monopoly-20190305-story.html
======
jerf
It's articles like this that make me wonder how much of our middle class
burden comes from hidden rent seeking parasites like this.

I honestly don't know. I'm not trying to imply any particular thing. I
honestly wonder. These sorts of things can stack up through the layers of
companies that make things.

And where does this money go? What does it end up doing?

~~~
sampo
> how much of our middle class burden comes from hidden rent seeking parasites
> like this.

If you include the unwillingness to respond to demand by building enough new
homes in the popular urban areas, probably a lot.

A 1000 sq.ft. home (house or condo) should not cost more than $200,000 to
build. Anything above that, someone is making profit.

~~~
eeeeeeeeeeeee
It doesn't even seem like anyone has interest in building $200,000 houses
anymore, but they will sell you a poorly made condo for $400,000 and $600/mo
HOA fees.

I am a single person trying to find a house that is not four or five bedrooms
(I only need one or two) and doesn't cost 1/2 mil minimum and it's difficult.
This used to be called "the starter house" but it doesn't seem to exist
anymore with new construction.

~~~
MrLeap
I decided to take a break from society last year. I'm fortunate enough where I
am that it's eminently reasonable to do.

I found some Mennonites that build small 14 * 28 foot cabins with two sleeping
lofts. It costs about 8k, and that includes delivery to your land. They come
with the exterior/roof finished, but the interior is up to you.

Your personal asceticism modulates the cost. My shower is actuated by a ball
valve. I set the temperature at the inline gas water heater to perfection, so
I don't need hot and cold! I was surprised to learn how cheap the insulation,
carpet, sheetrock, mud and paint were.

Rural land here is about 2k per acre. Many plots already have wells dug, but
if not It'll cost about 4-6k to get one drilled, and 500-1000$ for a well
pump.

Septic tanks are a few grand. A trenching shovel is cheaper, but that option
depends on the topology of your land and your heart.

I get my electricity from solar. If you do that, you need some panels, an
inverter, charge controller and batteries. My system is pretty modest. 10 deep
cycle batteries. I've lost track of how many panels we've got. Most of them we
soldered the cells together so it kind of all blurs together. The whole of it
probably cost about 1700$. It's enough to run our super efficient 12 volt
fridge, the pump and a few laptops.. except when we go a week without sun
during the winter.

Next consulting gig I get, I'll probably get a wind generator as well.

When it's oppressively cloudy, I use a small gasoline generator to power all
the stuff. It also will kick on a battery charger that'll top the batteries
off.

This winter I used a propane heater. I've come to realize liquid propane is
somewhat money inefficient compared to a wood stove. I'll have the wood stove
installed by next winter. I'll probably keep using the propane oven.

Leading up to me dropping out of society, I came to resent paying rent.. I
resented the thought of office power games having survival consequences for my
life. I didn't have to off-grid like I have.. There are power lines. It's just
such a great feeling to cut out monthly subscription costs from my life. The
serenity it brings is maximum. Mother gaia gives me my water and sol my
electrons.

I still do consulting work as it comes to me. Blissfully, I no longer feel
desperation and anxiety between contracts.

~~~
hector_vasquez
Don't get me wrong, it's great that you found a way to reduce the work stress
in your life! But ... I genuinely cannot tell whether the guy posting on
Hacker News that he "dropped out of society" is being serious or tongue-in-
cheek.

If paying society's currency for all the solar panels and the batteries and
the gas and the generator and the refrigerator and the laptops and the deeded
property and all the other stuff that society created is dropping out of
society, I wonder what it is like to be a member of society.

~~~
MrLeap
It's a bit tongue-in-cheek but not totally inaccurate. I'm visiting the big
city for now which is why I'm on HN. You all are my people, so I like to check
in when I can ;)

I consider 'dropping out of society' to partially be a state of mind thing.
Currently, when I'm 'in country', I am very disconnected from the world at
large. I have to drive for 30 minutes in order to receive text messages or
phone calls. In order to get internet, I have to drive an hour to the lake so
I can get some LTE. I don't have a TV, and I don't listen to the radio.
America could go to war and I could go a month without knowing about it.

I grew up in suburbia right outside of the densest city in the state. Until
last year I had never put a screw into wood, nor had I ever wired up a light
or planted a potato. MrLeap's life this year is 180 degrees different than it
was every year prior. I think the contrast in my perspective makes the 'drop
out' comment more appropriate, but it's a personal thing.

I obliterated most of my savings doing this, and I'm on track this year to
make SIGNIFICANTLY less than the poverty line. I think that represents a
certain uncoupling from the standard structures of society. I intend to
increase that as time goes on, but if I fail, I should still keep on living.
I've lived an arduous life, and my re-orienting is in reflection of that.

If I really put my soul into it, I could garden hard, raise animals and cut
out the last human survival-y thing that takes me into town. I really like
cans of mini-ravioli though so I might not take it that far.

I could get satellite internet, or maybe a cell phone booster and a tower to
obviate my connectivity problems. Maybe I will someday. Right now, I'm focused
on building a workshop and blacksmithing. The workshop is hexagonal, which I
think is cool. Anybody want a forged spatula? ;D

~~~
ohazi
America is _currently_ at war, yet most of us still living in society don't
seem to know about it.

------
jasode
I was able to slash my eyeglasses expenditures in both the exams and the
frames:

eye exams: I used to pay the optometrist $153 ($117 refraction + $36
dilation). I later found out that Costco often has an optometrist on site in a
tiny office and will charge just $59 (and add +$20 for dilation). That's less
than half the cost of most other optometrists.

frames: switched to Zenni online to avoid the LensCrafters/Pearle/Eyemasters
and their heavy markups.

Yes, some people don't like ordering online frames because they can't "try
them on". If that's a deal breaker, consider going to Costco and see if you
like any of their frames. Costco's total price will be about half of the
dedicated eyewear chains. If you can't find anything among Costco's selection
of frames, I'm afraid you'll be stuck with the Luxoticca monopoly and pay high
prices.

I know some folks recommend Warby Parker but last time I checked, they cost
more than Costco.

~~~
mindslight
Zenni requires you to do a bit of your own research, like every other new-
economy self-service approach. But it's worth it.

Switching to Zenni has allowed me to move to cheap CR-39 lenses rather than
expensive high index material. CR-39 is soft, and if I'm paying a lot for
frames then the lenses getting scratched is a Big Deal. Then pile on further
costs for coatings etc. But if the frames and lenses are both inexpensive,
then needing to get a new pair sooner is not really a big deal.

(polycarb is right out due to its horrible chromatic aberration. If you don't
know what that is, and you're perfectly content with the clarify of things
you're seeing, don't look it up lest you sensitize yourself to it!)

I still need to find a decent sunglass frame on Zenni. Their basic aviators
are way too small.

~~~
frosted-flakes
Chromatic aberration drives me nuts, especially when driving at night or using
a computer. LED headlights are particularly irritating; if I don't look
through the centre of the lenses, the way they separate into distinct blue and
white lights creates a visually chaotic scene.

The last time I got new glasses (from Costco), I specifically requested lenses
that would minimise chromatic aberration. But they didn't have anything better
than the high index lenses I already had. I have very bad eyes (rx of -8.25
and -8.00), which makes my lenses quite thick.

Are there other lens materials that do a better job of minimising chromatic
aberration? I've tried researching this, but wasn't able to find anything.

~~~
theandrewbailey
I know exactly what you're talking about. The Microsoft logo drives me nuts,
in that I know the colored squares are equally separated from each other, but
I don't see them that way. They actually move towards and away from each other
as they move around my field of view.

~~~
frosted-flakes
Yeah, this effect really screws with my head sometimes. Sitting at a traffic
signal and seeing the coloured light floating off to side is a bit weird too.

------
ams6110
I think a big part of this is, like health care, insurance hiding the true
cost from consumers.

I have a vision plan as a benefit from my job. Covers exams and eyeware, so I
have never paid more than a small co-pay for glasses and I had no idea what
the cost was behind the scenes.

The insurers don't care as they just pass the cost along to the employers who
pay for the policies. The employers don't know any better.

This is a case of market pressure on prices being totally eliminated by layers
of bureaucracy and obfuscation.

~~~
Someone1234
It is worth noting that the same company selling you glasses also owns most
Vision Insurance plans. The plans only cover their vendors.

~~~
zymhan
And that company is EyeMed. Your Vision insurance is almost certainly through
them.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxottica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxottica)

~~~
zippergz
I don't know the numbers, but for my entire working life across several
companies, my insurance has been through VSP, not EyeMed. So "almost
certainly" seems like an overstatement.

------
abruzzi
I've always followed the normal route--I have employer provided vision
insurance, I would get myself tested every two years by a optometrist that my
insurance covered, and I would buy glass using the prescription from the
optometrist or a glasses store supported by my insurance. I don't have
anything special in my glasses--single focal, no tinting or light sensitivity,
and my glasses weren't remotely stylish, and I'd pay ~$50-70 after insurance.

I recently lost my glasses in a pond filled with alligators, so I wasn't going
to try to retrieve them. I figured I needed cheap glasses until my insurance
would cover me again. I had an old prescription but it was over a year old. I
looked at Warby Parker, but they seem to require an actual prescription. So I
tried Zenni Optical because all they need are the correction figures for each
lens, they don't require an actual doctor signed document. Something I've
always felt was weird--its not like prescription drugs, and I can decide if
the glasses don't work, and a 18 month old prescription is better than no
glasses.

So $35 shipped for glasses and frames, and they had a lot that were cheaper.
The seem to be very good quality, they seem to work better than lost pair (the
prescription didn't have a pupillary distance, so I had to measure it. My eyes
are pretty wide, and a lot of lenses can't accommodate my PD, so I wonder if
the optometrist just figured close enough for lenses with a lower max PD.)
Before this I had no idea how much markup was in the cost of a pair of
glasses. Now I'll still get my eyes checked locally, but $30 glasses is better
than what I can get locally even after my insurance.

~~~
Animats
Here's a useful program someone in the HN/YC universe could write - something
that uses your computer or phone camera to measure your interpupillary
distance. This is a bit tricky to do yourself with a ruler and a mirror.

Just have the user take a selfie while holding some object of known dimensions
on their forehead. Like a dollar bill. Find the eyes and pupils (OpenCV can do
that), find the reference object, calculate.

Then take a picture of the prescription, OCR to the numbers (which will need a
really good OCR program given the handwriting of many ophthalmologists),
confirm the data with the user, and take the order for new glasses. Composite
a selfie with pictures of glasses so you can see them on your face.

Order from China, deliver via E-Packet, profit. Who needs Luxotica?

~~~
walterbell
Some of these apps exist, but none are as accurate as a ruler and two post-it
notes with a pinhole.

If Apple opens up the depth sensor on the iPhone camera, such apps will be
more accurate.

~~~
Animats
The trouble with do it yourself measurement of the distance between eyes is
that it's done with eyes that need glasses, without wearing them. You need a
second person or hardware.

~~~
abruzzi
In my case, my distance vision is bad, but a meter away is sharp without
correction. In fact, I’ve never had a prescription that doesn’t f-up my near
vision, so I had to do the measurement without glasses on.

------
mLuby
Money quote: >“Federal officials fell asleep at the wheel,” Dahan said. “They
should never have allowed all these companies to roll into one. It destroyed
competition.” Butler said it should be clear from EssilorLuxottica’s practices
that the company has too much market power. “If that’s not a monopoly,” he
said, “I don’t know what is.”

Where's the public outrage? Maybe because they're foreign companies? Maybe
because the price crept up slowly over time? Maybe because glasses are tied to
the medical industry where consumers have come to accept absurd prices? :(

Worth noting there's always some markup for brick-and-mortar locations, and
for something people like to try on before buying that's (was) a big deal.

------
whizzkid
I think Luxottica CEO himself explained the whole situation in 1 second 7
years ago, and it is spot on (Not saying it is how it should be).

Listen for yourself.

[https://youtu.be/VxPLGPO2q3E?t=749](https://youtu.be/VxPLGPO2q3E?t=749)

~~~
astura
For those that can't do audio right now:

"everything is worth what people are ready to pay"

------
caymanjim
Lens Crafters charges a huge markup if you want their lenses put into your own
frames. It's almost cheaper to buy new frames from them (and in the case of
particularly-expensive lenses, it is in fact cheaper to buy new frames).
That's clearly a scam.

Warby Parker sells glasses at more reasonable prices, but their frames are
god-awful hideous tortoiseshell plastic abominations. If you want nice metal
frames, they have a small selection, and the prices aren't that great.

I normally buy two pairs of glasses at once (one for distance, one computer-
specific). I'll probably soon start buying a third pair, progressive bifocals.
I'm now wondering at what point it will literally be cheaper to fly overseas
to get them made. I may in fact have already crossed that line.

The only reason I ever use Lens Crafters is when I need glasses same-day due
to an emergency. Just last month, I broke my glasses a few days before an
extended overseas trip. If I hadn't been going to the Cayman Islands (where
everything is more expensive), I'd have waited until arrival to get them made.

It's unfortunate that most optometrists have a two-week turnaround on new
glasses. For all I know, they're going through the same Luxottica monopoly
too, but at least I avoid Lens Crafters. Their quality is absolute shit;
poorly-ground lenses, shitty coatings that scratch easily and bubble up. It's
probably intentional, so that you're forced to return less than a year later
for new glasses.

I've heard good things about Costco, but I don't have access to one.

~~~
1996
> one for distance, one computer-specific

How do you find the correction for the computer specific glass?

I have a pair for distance but it is a horror to use with computers.

~~~
caymanjim
Life-changing. I should have gotten them decades ago. I had no idea how much I
was straining my eyes trying to use distance glasses for the computer, until I
finally got them.

I sat at my desk and measured the exact distance to the monitor, then asked my
optometrist to give me glasses with a focal length of that +/\- about eight
inches. For me, it's roughly arms' length, about three feet.

Many optometrists try to sell me on progressives or some other half-solution,
but using large 30" monitors, or sometimes multiple 24" monitors, I need a
wide field of view. Having specific glasses is perfect. It's a minor
inconvenience having to switch back and forth, but I'll just leave them on my
desk and swap when I sit down.

I bet my distance vision would be a lot better now if I hadn't spent 25 years
straining to see a monitor with the wrong glasses.

~~~
1996
Exactly this!! I have an extra wide computer screen for work, it is a gamers
screen. So when they tried to sell me progressive, I refused. I want 2 good
solutions, not 1 half assed one.

Next time I see an optometrist, I will have to ask them with my precise focal
length. They have the details of my correction, so they should be able to
figure it out.

Can I bother you more? What is your take on undercorrection? I am wondering if
I should go for that for my future computer glasses, or my regular glasses.

~~~
walterbell
It works _if_ combined with "active focus". There are references aplenty in
the Endmyopia web forum, FB group and YT videos.

------
umvi
Seems like the majority of optometrists could be replaced by photo booth-esque
optometry machines. Simply sit in a booth, look through some eye ports, and
the machine will automatically start cycling through lenses and making you
choose between 1, 2, or equal. At the end it spits out your prescription for a
nominal fee. For an extra fee you could have additional eye imagery taken by
the machine sent off to a remote optometry lab for analysis.

I've never been to optometry school, but 10/10 times I've gone to get a new
prescription, the prescription process has been extremely algorithmic, to the
point where I wonder if cartel-esque forces are _preventing_ automated
optometry machines.

~~~
city41
I consider my vision important enough to get a human opinion on it. Even if a
machine can do it correctly 99% of the time, having someone experienced there
to confirm the choices is worth it.

~~~
smileysteve
Even if the human has been encouraged to lie, cheat, and steal from you?

~~~
wycy
Optometry, particularly w/ re: prescriptions, seems like the one field of
healthcare where patients can be reasonably informed. You can generally tell
instantly if a prescription is right for you, and I wouldn't think there's any
incentive for an optometrist to lie about your Rx.

------
nerdponx
_In 1995, Luxottica purchased LensCrafters’ parent company, U.S. Shoe Corp.,
for $1.4 billion. The goal wasn’t to get into the shoe business. It was to
take control of LensCrafters’ hundreds of stores nationwide._

 _Dahan said things went downhill for him after that. Luxottica increasingly
emphasized its own frames over those of outside suppliers, he said, and Custom
Optical’s sales plunged. Dahan was forced to close his business in 2001._

Funny that Microsoft was under the gun for antitrust violations while this was
happening apparently unabated.

------
JustSomeNobody
I worked in the industry until a little over a decade ago, putting myself
through an engineering degree. The company I started with was bought by
LensCrafters, but before it was we pretty much knew the wholesale prices on
everything. After LC, LC just distributed stock to us so we didn't follow
pricing.

I was always amazed at the markup. A pair of Sola lens blanks for FT28
bifocals was about $3.50. A typical name brand frame out of the Frames catalog
was less than $10.00 (ie: Perry Ellis). Dies for UV and tint were several
dollars a bottle and would last a few days to a week depending on sales
volume. Basically one tint and uv job would pay for most of the dies and UV.

Now, most of those places were in malls, so the rent there is astronomical,
that's one thing to consider.

I wouldn't say people are getting "ripped off", but there's definitely quite a
bit of markup. A single vision pair with an Rx such that I could use finished
lenses, I could edge, uv, light tint and assemble in about 10 - 15 minutes.
You'd be paying a couple hundred for that (depending on brand), but I could do
it while you wait. And if I did it, you'd be happy (no scratches, gaps, etc).
I always take pride in what I do (even now with coding).

So, what's the convenience worth? Depends on you I guess.

~~~
mindslight
Do you have any recollection what the blanks for higher index materials cost?

Zenni's fancier materials are completely lackluster (Abbe wise), and I'm
curious if that's because the proprietary high index materials are really so
expensive that it would be out of their market, or if Luxottica's
anticompetitive behavior extends deep into the supply chain as well.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
They weren’t that much more. In the $5 - $10 range for most, but I don’t
recall specifics. We did so many FT28 CR39 lenses at that time that’s why I
recalled those easily.

There were some progressives that cost us over a hundred but that included lab
work as they wouldn’t let us process them.

Edit: I wanna re emphasize that all this was prior to LC (US Shoe bought us
then Lux bought US Shoe actually) buying us. I don’t know what prices did
after that.

------
elliekelly
I use every chance I get to tell people about ZenniOptical.com because they
are so great.

A full pair of glasses (yes, frames _and_ lenses) start at $6.95 total. Even
with some upgrades for scratch resistance & to prevent glare I don't think
I've spent more than $50 on a pair of glasses since I found Zenni.

There's also the added bonus of the expensive glasses/sunglasses paradox: the
more money I spend on glasses & sunglasses the more prone I seem to breaking
or misplacing them. Needless to say at $7/pair I've got quite the collection
of Zenni frames going since I've yet to lose a set.

~~~
ourmandave
I recently bought a couple pairs from Zenni and couldn't be happier.

Just the lens were $55, probably because of progressives, but that's still
_way_ less than anything I've paid before.

------
throwaway-1283
I'm a big fan of Jins ([https://www.jins.com/us/](https://www.jins.com/us/))
in SF. They make your glasses on-site in ~30m. Price (lens + frame) is
comparable to Warby Parker.

~~~
kalleboo
I live in Japan where they originate from and they have stores all over the
country. All my glasses have been from them, zero complaints, super cheap,
good service too (you can drop in to any of their stores whenever to get
things adjusted, lost nosepads replaced, etc for free which is hard to do with
an online vendor)

------
dr_
Why would Versace, Chanel, Burberry etc which are considered luxury brands,
all of the sudden sell discounted frames? They have extensive markups on all
of their clothing, handbags etc. They are targeting a different, and I would
imagine dwindling, market.

There are plenty of options online and offline for cheaper frames.

------
pedasmith
I dipped my toe into the "online glasses" market -- and let me say it's a
game-changer. The eyeglass store wanted about $300 per frame, meaning that I'd
grudgingly get one pair.

The online purchase was only $75 for high-end frames and coatings, plus $27
for three pairs of prescription "computer monitor" glasses (one for the
office, one for the home office, one for the other home office!). And by
having more pairs, I can bring a pair on trips, just in case the main ones get
broken!

(Personally, I've also never had any useful help in picking out frames. I'm
not very fashion conscious, and every time the help doesn't seem to want to
actually help be find frames that would look good on my face)

~~~
1996
> $27 for three pairs of prescription "computer monitor" glasses

You are the second person to mention "computer monitor" glasses so I wonder,
are they the same correction as your normal glasses? I am new to wearing
glasses. I have a pair I use outside, they make everything crystal clear. I
love them!! But for computers they are a pain after while, so I don't use
them.

As other people mention costs, I paid about $30 total for the eye exam + frame
+ both lenses + next day delivery (not in the US).

Now I am in the US for a while, so I can't ask for "computer monitor" glasses,
but with my correction information I could try to order some from zenni or
eyebuydirect.

~~~
junaru
Guessing "computer glasses" means that they have a blue light filter. The
filter doesn't cost much extra and really helps.

~~~
1996
Just got a reply- it's not. It has a different focal length, so you can relax
your eyes when working on a computer screen.

------
sergers
I have a friend who runs a chain of prescription eye glass stores.

For the generics/non name brand, he only spends a few dollars a frame with the
lens costing more.

And then marks them up to $200-300

------
tasty_freeze
I don't get it. I just tried a few online "cheap glasses" places. I want
single vision, prescription (relatively low strength, nothing exotic),
polarized sunglasses. Fashion doesn't really matter, it is just for driving.

zenni: $25 frames, cheapest polarization option: $67.89

eyebuydirect.com: $42 frames (malibu), plus polarization: $92

39dollarglasses.com: $39 frames (houston), cheapest polarization option +69,
total $108 (more if I want anti-glare)

While these prices are better than my optometrist, where are people finding
these "I got three pairs of prescription sunglasses for $50" stories?

------
walterbell
Eyebuydirect is notable because:

\- US based

\- Small premium over Hong Kong (Zenni)

\- Essilor lenses (similar to LensCrafters)

\- Wide frame selection, some are clones of designer frames which cost 20x

\- 2 week refund/replace for any reason

\- No prescription needed

Their human customer service seems to be in Malaysia, so CS interactions via
voice or email can take a few iterations, but are usually resolved within a
few days.

~~~
Scoundreller
They are a subsidiary of Essilor.

Will be interesting to see what the effects of the merger with Luxxottica will
be.

I feel like the frames were more of the cost than the lenses.

------
resters
I just bought a pair of glasses from the local optometrist. Lenses and frames
came to $650. It turns out the eye exam was done so hastily that I ended up
with the wrong prescription.

So when I went to a different place to have the exam redone I decided to try
some discount glasses. I found a pair for $27 with free lenses. I sprung for
the $12 expedited shipping and have been very pleased. The online store I used
was GlassesUSA.com, which I believe ships directly from Thailand.

------
webwanderings
We were in one of the South Asian country not too long ago (family of four).
Bought 2 pairs of glasses each, everything you name it, is included. Cost?
<$50 for all. It would have cost us at least $1000 in US. And you cannot tell
we wear cheap glasses. They are perfectly fine. Of course they are not
original Ray Ban but who cares as long as prescription is right. The eyewear
industry in US is totally out of control.

------
eterm
"Fashion accessory prices don't reflect supply cost" is hardly news or
something to "gratify one's intellectual curiosity" as per the site
guidelines.

If you buy a fashion brand of glasses frames then you're no more or less
getting "ripped off" than you are when buying a Gucci hoodie.

Sure, all the brands are owned by the same company, but that affects a lot of
things not just eyewear.

~~~
noja
> then you're no more or less getting "ripped off"

You are being ripped off. Look at how much of the industry they own. The only
reason this hasn't been acted on yet is because people see their various
brands as being separate.

~~~
chrisseaton
I don't even know what 'ripped off' means? Does it mean if you chose to buy
their product you'll have to pay more than you'd happen to like to pay for it?
There no oracle that can give us one true price, and anything above that is a
'rip off.'

~~~
noja
It means not buying from a market with sufficient competition.

~~~
chrisseaton
But there is sufficient competition - you can buy no-name glasses for a few
dollars.

You can’t buy these specific luxury fashion brands of glasses cheaply but that
just means you don’t think the name is worth it. It’s not a ‘rip off’.

~~~
tk75x
It's a ripoff because the price to quality ratio of the luxury brands are much
higher than the budget brands which provide the same functionality and style
as the luxury brands the only difference being there is no logo stamped on the
side.

EDIT: regarding the top comment of this thread, I see and agree with the
argument that if you are aware and able to get a cheaper option, then you are
not being "ripped off" but just making a bad financial decision of your own
accord.

------
dang
Other threads on what has turned out to be a perennial topic:

2019:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18980191](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18980191)

2018:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17061380](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17061380)

2017:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15736573](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15736573)

2016:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13091936](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13091936)

2015:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9183464](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9183464)

2013:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6718224](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6718224)

------
mikevp
People who buy hoity-toity "designer fashion" items are paying for those D&G
or whatever letters on the item. I find it impossible to work up any sympathy.

I get Flexon frames. Actually, I haven't bought frames in years. I just have
them put new lenses in the "time before last" frames. So, maybe Flexon has
inflated in price, too, in the past few years.

But the fact that I'm still happily wearing Flexon frames from years ago, and
they still look just fine, and are still comfortable, means it doesn't affect
me.

They do gouge for some of the stuff I get on the lenses; anti-glare, scratch
resistant, progressive multifocal. I could cheap out on some of this, but
this, at least, is functional, not "Oh, look how kuuuul I am, my glasses have
a "D&G" on them!" crap.

------
ericmcer
Can anyone speak to why you need an up to date prescription to buy glasses or
contacts? It has never made an ounce of sense to me, yet I have been blocked
from doing it in the past, gone through the rigamarole to find out my
prescription is unchanged, and then bought them.

~~~
umvi
The party line is: "to check your eyes for disease"

If you reply: "People that don't need glasses don't get their eyes checked
every 2 years for disease"

The party line will be: "People that don't need glasses are at lower risk for
eye disease"

I just got a physical copy of my prescription and uploaded it to my google
drive. It's 5 years expired, but I still see 20/20 and use it to purchase new
frames online.

------
walrus01
Without even opening the article I can predict that it informs everyone of
what a behemoth Luxoticca is.

As a person with a nearsightedness measurement greater than -5.5, it's
something I had to educate myself on.

Costco optical is a decent option for retail sales.

~~~
elektor
Do you need a Costco membership to buy glasses from them?

~~~
berbec
Even buying a Costco membership for the sole purpose of buying glasses will
likely save you money vs LensCrafters or independent eyewear stores.

My dad's last two pair of glasses (reading & normal) cost him $2100. That's
criminal

------
coldtea
Adam Ruins Everything - The Conspiracy Behind Your Glasses

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAeHuDcy_bY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAeHuDcy_bY)

------
chown
Recently, I was telling a friend how ridiculously cheap it is to buy a pair of
glasses overseas. I paid about $22 for the pair I'm wearing. I went to make an
extra pair recently (a backup pair, just in case). They quoted me about $450,
which they agreed, was of lesser quality than the one I was wearing. Blew my
mind! I then decided to just get it shipped from the same place I got my first
pair. They couldn't ship it so my sister has to do it. Ended up costing me
about $40 with shipping.

------
kmm
I understand how branding and marketing could drive the price of frames up,
but I've never understood why the lenses themselves are so expensive. The
tolerances are not very high, and there must be a massive economy of scale.
The article itself states that they can be made for a buck and a half. Who
manufactures those, is there a similar situation as with Luxottica? Why is
that market not being disrupted?

------
wickedOne
i've got a strong impression this article is about sunglasses rather than
eyewear in general.

"Armani, Brooks Brothers, [ ... ], Vogue and Versace" neither of them, as far
as i know, make decent "regular" glasses.

i've been wearing glasses for the last 42 years and apart from when you're a
kid (because you break more shit than your parents would like to admit) you
don't need (nor want) a different frame each year; it's not a fashion thing,
it's something you actually need to function.

with that in mind: you don't go to a pearl store to get measurements for your
eyes, at least not if you want them to be accurate.

so yeah, Luxottica might be behind a lot of "fashion based" eyeware, but hey
who's running the show for sneakers or training suits other than nike and
adidas? i mean, this is nothing new and if you want to be trendy it's going to
cost you.

meanwhile i think i spent ~€1000 on frames and lenses the last 15 year whilst
wearing silhouette. so, at least for me, it's not as bad as the article makes
it out to be

------
monksy
This is one of those things that you can buy online and for a lot cheaper. It
always amazes me about how much we are charged for things in the west and that
when you go to Asia it's soo much cheaper. (Clothing is another example.. when
you're looking at a starting price of 150baht for shorts.. [$3.2 before
negotiating] )

------
RosanaAnaDana
How reasonable would it be to the prescription process; for example, a kiosk
in the mall where I sit in a booth and click (better/worse) while looking into
some-kind of a vision testing device.

The whole thing is so procedural and really, not very difficult to administer.
It seems like extremely low hanging fruit for automation.

~~~
mrob
Optimizing for just "better or worse" will result in excessively strong
correction. If you're only looking at a single letter in the very center of
your field of vision, then overcorrection feels sharper and easier to focus
on. You don't notice the additional optical artifacts everywhere else. The
ideal glasses have just barely enough correction.

However, this isn't an argument against automation, because human optometrists
frequently get it wrong too. I agree that it should be automated.

~~~
RosanaAnaDana
I've just always found myself frustrated by the sense that beyond looking into
my eyes for signs of disease, the actual act of making a prescription could be
done by anyone with an afternoon of training; yet I have to make an
appointment and drop 100-200$ for something that is, on occasion, less effort
than getting an order correct at chipotle.

~~~
ojilles
In other countries the exams are totally free (basically because of the
reasons you mention).

------
hourislate
For the last couple of years I have transitioned to Parker Warby and Costco's
Kirkland Brand for reading glasses. As a tip for Americans, when traveling to
Europe make sure you go shopping for Frames. You will get them for 1/4 - 1/3
the cost of US prices and have a selection 10 times as large.

~~~
SquirrelOnFire
I'll have to keep an eye out, thanks!

~~~
findjashua
I see what you did there

------
bluedino
I'm not sure if America's Best is part of Luxxotica (I heard they were owned
by Walmart but I never checked) $59.99 glasses turn into $349. Special exams,
coatings, plastic lenses, 'Contact lens' fees, 'Contact lens club', scammers
just waiting to prey on people that walk in.

------
kleiba
_I noted that if you wear designer glasses, there’s a very good chance you’re
wearing Luxottica frames._

This may be true for the big name brands, but there are also a number of
smaller independent companies that innovate with new designs and/or materials.
For instance, the German designers "Meyer Eyewear" (www.meyer-eyewear.com)
started about 10 years ago with a collection made of buffalo and reindeer
horn. Now they moved on to ultra-light titanium frames. And that's just one
example.

Like in many fields, there is a mass market and then there are niche areas
where more exotic (and perhaps more exciting) developments are dwelling.

------
fishywang
For the recent years I stopped paying for vision insurance, and just pay out
of pocket at Jins when I need new pairs. They have a brick and mortar near me
(San Jose CA), and also do prescription sunglasses.

When I had vision insurance I feel obliged to get new pairs every year
(covered by insurance), and also often pay a fair amount out of pocket because
at most shops that accept the insurance the strictly under the coverage pairs
are usually ugly or in shitty quality, or both. Jins lenses and frames are
actually in good quality and durable.

------
rhinoceraptor
A tip for anyone measuring their own PD in the mirror, shine a bright light in
your eyes so your pupils constrict. That will make finding the center a bit
easier.

------
kashyapc
Hmm. Five months ago I spent about 230€ prescription glasses -- as a 40-hour
"screen starer", I went for a reasonably good quality French vendor ("Studio
FB", and the glasses themselves from Ziess).

I shelled out that much as I wear glasses every waking hour and didn't wanted
some crap quality glasses / frame. I really like them so far. They better last
_really_ long.

------
glitchc
I respectfully must disagree with all of the claims here regarding zenni and
costco, unpopular as it may be. They are only comparable at the low end but
have no matching product at the high end. I bought a pair of glasses at costco
for $200 as a backup to my daily rimless wearers. First, costco and zenni
don’t have any rimless options. Second, the lenses I did buy ( partial frame)
were their lightest but still significantly heavier than what I replaced.
Third, the lenses just didn’t have the same clarity and sharpness as my
oakleys. They just don’t offer the same quality coatings and I paid for their
best. After a couple of months, I caved and went back to lenscrafters for a
replacement. My new Ray Bans, although expensive, are like night and day
compared to Costco. Light as a feather, outstanding clarity and sharpness,
extremely scratch resistant, on the whole simply remarkable to wear. Side by
side comparison, exact same prescription, there’s no contest. None.

Luxottica may be overcharging, but truth is the discount brands do not carry a
comparable product. Certainly you can save money at those places, but the
product isn’t the same. In some sense you are getting what you pay for. You
can get even better lenses from Zeiss and Nikon if you go beyond Lenscrafters,
but I haven’t walked that path yet as it’s a bit beyond my budget (read:
insurance), although I’ve heard excellent things.

Edit: Grammar.

~~~
mrfredward
>my budget (read: insurance)

I wonder to what extent the presence of insurance in the mix has made things
worse. Markets never work particularly well when the entity paying and the
entity choosing the product aren't the same. Textbooks (vs normal books) come
to mind as an obvious example of this.

~~~
kps
Luxottica also owns the ‘insurance’ provider EyeMed.

------
ourmandave
Since this thread is about eyewear, I just wanted to mention you can donate
eyeglasses, reading, and sunglasses to the Lions Club Intl.

[https://lionsclubs.org/en/resources-for-members/resource-
cen...](https://lionsclubs.org/en/resources-for-members/resource-
center/eyeglass-recycling-centers)

~~~
dredmorbius
That's of very limited use:

[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2012-05-03/recycl...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2012-05-03/recycling-
eyeglasses-is-a-feel-good-waste-of-money)

------
brandonmenc
I've been purchasing back-up glasses for nearly 20 years at places like Lens
Crafters and have never spent over $50 for such a pair - granted, they're
dorky safety frames and no fancy lens coatings, but still.

Cheap glasses have always been available, if you don't want fashionable
frames.

Also, please don't skip an actual yearly eye exam, for your health.

------
jowdones
An optician mentors an apprentice on how to sell glasses.

"You look in client's eyes and say 'That'll be 100 bucks'."

"If he doesn't blink you continue '... for the eye frame. The glasses will
cost another hundred bucks'"

"If you see that he still doesn't panic, you conclude: '... a piece'".

~~~
yread
And that's why it's important to deliver the quote in person

------
GenerocUsername
I just recently (2 weeks ago) made my first online purchase of prescription
glasses.

I entered my measurements and prescription from a 2 year-old check-up and got
2 pairs of glasses for < $50 and they are PERFECT.

Honestly NEVER buying glasses from any optometrist or even costco again.

Also, not an ad, just a recommendation, but checkout eyebuydirect.com

------
xfitm3
Similarly: screen your optician by what eyewear brands they carry. I saw a
“independent” for years that carried small brands and I felt the doctors
philosophy was better aligned with patient care vs sales.

------
forthispurpose
What are some good online companies that are fighting this status quo?

~~~
beering
Zenni is the main online company in the US selling eyeglasses for actually
reasonably prices. Downside is that you don't get to try them on before you
buy them, and I'm not a huge fan of their styles.

~~~
superkuh
Zenni is great for frames. But if your eyesight is seriously bad (ie, -10
diopter) you're much better off getting lenses put into Zenni frames at a
local optometrist. Zenni doesn't do things like lens edge bevel which becomes
necessary once your eyeglasses are 1cm+ thick at the edges.

And no, high index of refraction lenses like Zenni pushes just makes things
worse. High index lenses all have very low abbe number and their chromatic
abberation is so bad at high diopter that I can even read the license plates
of cars in the lane next to me while wearing them. They're only good for
vision straight ahead.

------
bonestamp2
My last pair of designer frames with lenses from LensCrafters: $350, similar
pair from my optometrist: $750, similar pair (but not designer frames) from an
online retailer: $50.

~~~
monksy
They're still making a profit off of it.

~~~
SquirrelOnFire
Sure. You want businesses you deal with to make profit, otherwise they won't
be around to do business with in the future.

In industrial supply chain, if you have two suppliers who are each charging
the same price and you know that one is making higher profit margins, go with
the one with higher margins - they're more likely to be stable.

~~~
dingaling
Some profit is useful for saving as a cushion. But in general remember that
profit is money that the business literally didn't find a way to spend, to the
extent that they're willing to throw away 20% of it as tax.

I'd rather deal with a company that ploughs surplus back into salaries or R&D
or even charity than squandering it as profit.

~~~
SquirrelOnFire
Agreed, but on a transaction level having higher profit MARGINS is what
enables the company to have money to plow back into the business.

------
phkahler
I've often wondered if there is any reason at all to allow companies to
own/buy/merge other companies. I have not found one.

------
chewyland
I bought two pairs of prescription glasses including frames and nice little
cases + one them was photocromatic.

The total cost was 47$ for both.

This was in Sofia.

------
aj7
1\. Have your opthalmologist do your refraction. He’ll charge you extra
usually. 2\. Walmart. Excellent quality and workflow.

------
joyeuse6701
If Luxottica is a as big a player as they say, shouldn't some anti-trust laws
come into play?

------
m3kw9
Just need @AOC or @realdonaldtrump to do a little tweet and the DOJ will get
on it.

------
GuillaumeBrdet
The answer my girlfriend has taken, get a good insurance.

$250 pair for $35. Done.

------
advertising
Have bought only retro super future for this very reason

------
arthurofbabylon
“Tell all”? That wasn’t very much.

------
natroniks
eyebuydirect.com

------
anewguy9000
wait we should be paying costs and not a markup? thats communism

