
Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German] - Bouncingsoul1
https://www.pressetext.com/de#news/20160415021
======
arviewer
And again, a new measure that will affect everybody except criminals, who pay
a drug addict to register hundreds of these cards.

~~~
fab13n
But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known
SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being
instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen
for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it.

Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed
with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficult to procure
a phone, and a weapon, and to hide on the net, etc., many of them won't be
able to assemble everything they need to commit serious crimes without getting
caught.

One of the reasons why gun homicides are so much less prevalent in Europe is
that if a minority of hardcore, resourceful criminals can find guns through
black markets, most of the random losers can't: too complicated, too
expansive, some planning-ahead required... And the many losers are the ones
causing the bulk of criminality, not the few hardcore criminals.

~~~
pmarreck
> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known
> SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest.

This is the same circular non-logic that permits officers to arrest you merely
for resisting arrest.

The state decides to make wearing blue illegal; I continue to because I am a
strong "blue believer"; thus, merely by insisting on wearing blue, I MUST hang
with other law-non-abiders (aka "criminals") and thus become a "person of
interest" to law enforcement for no other reason than sticking to principles.

Possessing an anonymous SIM card is no sole indicator that you are up to no
good. Assuming so is problematic due to a good privacy argument by Martin
Fowler: [http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-
privacy.html](http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html)

~~~
fab13n
I'm not arguing that it's a very dangerous slope for public liberties. I
believe the checks and balances against executive branches are increasingly
broken in most western democracies, and that robust online privacy pushes in
the very desirable direction of re-establishing a bit of that balance. I'm
really concerned that most citizens don't see this as a major voting issue.

However, this was neither the OP's point, nor what I was answering too. He
described the measure as ineffective, because most criminals would be able and
willing to acquire an illegal SIM before using a phone. I believe this to be
false and I explained why. Being dangerous for liberties is not the same as
being effective from police forces' PoV; actually, these two qualities are
negatively correlated most of the time.

~~~
pmarreck
Ah, thank you for the clarification

------
swimfar
In a tangentially related topic, here's an interesting animation of location
tracking of a German politician based on his phone records:

[http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-
retention](http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention)

Malte Spitz sued to have his telephone provider hand over six months of his
phone data. He gave it to Zeit Online who used it to create this record of
where he had been.

It's probably not too surprising to many people any more, but I still find it
amazing when I watch it. And it might be interesting to people who don't
realize how detailed the information is. I also think the visualisation is
nice.

~~~
IvyMike
If you've got an Android phone and location history is on, take a look at your
own:
[https://www.google.com/maps/timeline](https://www.google.com/maps/timeline)

------
titzer
I live in Germany. In general Germans are very privacy conscious, due to, as
others have mentioned in this thread, experiences with the Stasi. Up until
recently with the refugee situation, border control hasn't been too strict,
and agents generally don't berate you with questions if you possess validate
documents.

This pisses me off, and I wager a large portion of the German populace. Let's
hope this goes down in flames.

~~~
cloudjacker
A lot of germans I know are concerned about the new representation of
extremist parties in the last elections.

My perspective is continually that the existing government fails to represent
the people, and any polar opposite party will force the existing government to
compromise in their plans, and create policies that do more accurately reflect
the will of the people.

Exhibit a

------
05
Thankfully because there's no roaming in the EU, there's absolutely no other
way to get an unregistered SIM card to work in Germany..

~~~
cm2187
If even if there was roaming, there isn't any internet to order foreign SIM
cards online.

~~~
lukasm
Get a car in Berlin, drive for 1h to the first gas station in Poland. This is
yet another stupid law. No problem for bad guys, just hurting legitimate
businesses.

And obviously no identity theft will happen, since no one ever hacked any
provider and you cannot ask a homeless guy to buy you a dozen.

~~~
skoczymroczny
> drive for 1h to the first gas station in Poland.

Not for long

[http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/polska-i-swiat/a/koniec-
anoni...](http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/polska-i-swiat/a/koniec-anonimowych-
telefonow-na-karte,9784741/)

------
DominikPeters
Main points of the article: For purposes of terrorism prevention, the current
German government wants to require sellers of SIM cards to check photo ID and
ask for current address. If this happens, it will be (theoretically)
impossible to own a German phone number that isn't connected to a name.

The address data is supposed to be put into a searchable database allowing
security officials to search for names even if the exact spelling isn't known
(which appears to be a problem with current systems). For privacy purposes,
they plan to put a limit on the number of records displayed in response to a
search query.

~~~
phillc73
I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the
world.

For at least the last three or four years in Australia there is a requirement
to present Photo ID before buying a SIM card. I was quite surprised by this
when I tried to buy a SIM at Sydney airport a few years ago.

I have no idea what the government is doing with the data nor how it is
protected. At the time, I just wanted a local SIM and to be on my way.

~~~
creshal
> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of
> the world.

Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the
experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a
TIN met massive, years long resistance.

One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for
genocide. Again.

~~~
danielbln
> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for
> genocide. Again.

I like to believe we are a bit further away from genocide than one election
gone awry. 71 years passed, you know.

~~~
rfrey
Societies pass from peaceable to terrifying all the time, and it generally
happens pretty quickly. Nobody ever seems to see it coming, although it's
always obvious in hindsight to armchair analysts.

It hasn't happened in one of the big powers in awhile, but 71 years isn't that
long. It wouldn't be paradise the day before an election and hell the day
after, but you never know what event will be pivotal. Until armchair time.

~~~
rwmj
Russia being a good example.

~~~
icebraining
When was the transition? I don't remember Russia ever being a peaceable
society.

~~~
creshal
1989\. Most of the west expected communism to fall _eventually_ , but nobody
expected it to end as it did, when it did.

------
jkot
Anon SIMs are already banned in many EU countries. It does not really work,
some homeless people have thousands SIMs registered on their name.

Also opposition in Germany says this might be discriminatory to refugees,
since some of them have no documents.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
In which ones? I have manu prepaid sims from all over Europe and the only one
with a name on is an old italian one when they required it. Which i think they
no longer do.

~~~
jkot
I had to show ID in Czech Republic, Hungaria, Ireland and Greece.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
> Czech Republic

I have a czech prepaid sim, never had to show an ID for it.

> Hungaria

True, ID needed there.

> Ireland

I had an Irish Three Sim. No ID was needed.

> Greece

Looks like an ID is needed there from Googling.

~~~
ithkuil
I confirm: in Ireland you can buy a sim (I have a tesco mobile SIM) with no ID

------
donohoe
If I want to text or talk to you over a cell network I need to show ID.

If I want to text, call (VOIP), email, chat, message you over wifi I don't.

Sounds very secure.

~~~
TACIXAT
What I dislike about it is as more sites require sms verification, your sms
number becomes a 'real id'. Given that your mobile subscriber likely sells
your demographic information, it's pretty shit for privacy. A lot of services
reject voip numbers for verification.

~~~
tunap
This is why 'free' online services require your mobile number to activate &
"protect access" to your account. Sure it works for that purpose, but more
importantly, for data/digital tracking, the modern mobile has become the new
tracking super-cookie to your digital ID.

~~~
reitoei
> the modern mobile has become the new tracking super-cookie to your digital
> ID

Never a truer word spoken.

------
JazCE
This is terrible news. I wanted to get a sim card for Japan, but you can only
get a pocket wifi device, which isn't so bad, but not as straightforward as
swapping your sim out for a local sim as i do when in the states or malaysia.

~~~
hamishforbes
That's not true. You just can't get a sim card with voice/SMS capability.
Foreigners can get data only SIMs no problem, most airports will sell them
(often out of a vending machine) e.g.
[https://t.iijmio.jp/en/](https://t.iijmio.jp/en/)

~~~
jessriedel
Given VOIP, what is the rationale of making this distinction?

~~~
tangent128
So voice SIMs can't be used as throwaway cell numbers, I'd guess.

------
expertentipp
An ID document and proof of address are already required in Germany when
buying SIM card directly from mobile network operators (i.e. Telekom, O2,
Vodafone). Apparently they plan to apply the same to resellers and virtual
operators.

~~~
jeffasinger
The ID requirement and address requirement were not enforced all that strictly
when I was last in Germany.

I bought a 10EUR SIM with a US driver's license (had left my passport in the
hostel, and just wrote down the address of the hostel I was staying at).

------
Bouncingsoul1
Couldn't find link in English. German government is planning to make it
impossible to buy SIM cars anonymously.

~~~
opless
Link 404s

------
nikolay
Those SIM cards are also banned in Bulgaria, but people find all kinds of way
to buy hundreds of cards that belong to retired or mentally ill people, and
others or import cards from abroad.

------
junto
I didn't realise it wasn't possible. I've always been asked for ID.

~~~
aluhut
You could buy those "Sets" at ALDI for example. You would still have to
register it somehow. I did it once on a public phone stating fake information.
Phone stopped working after few weeks.

------
madiathomas
In South Africa, we have had this kind of legislation since 2003. It is called
RICA(Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of
Communication-Related Information Act). Shops aren't allowed to sell a SIM
card without proof of identification. Foreigners can use their passports to
register a SIM card.

It takes few minutes. This was done to fight identity theft. We don't have
terrorism problem here because people who used to be regarded as
terrorists(freedom fighters) by former unjust, apartheid government are now in
power. If your SIM card is registered under your name, no-one else will be
allowed to do a SIM swap on it. Only you can do such after providing proof of
identification.

I feel it makes it easy for the law enforcement agencies to track down
criminals if they used the SIM card to commit crime. Our government doesn't
have history of invading privacy of their citizens, which makes it easier to
trust them.

~~~
_djo_
>I feel it makes it easy for the law enforcement agencies to track down
criminals if they used the SIM card to commit crime.

No, it doesn't. SIM cards registered with false identities are available for
about R50 apiece in central Johannesburg, without any need for the buyer to
provide identification. The police are aware of this.

>Our government doesn't have history of invading privacy of their citizens,
which makes it easier to trust them.

That's naive, there have been a number of stories showing just how badly the
government abuses the privacy of ordinary citizens. Amongst these was a story
by the Mail and Guardian showing that the government had performed over 6
million electronic intercepts in the first years that RICA was active, along
with testimony from current and former intelligence officers stating that they
often hid unauthorised intercepts amongst the multitude of authorised ones.

There is also clear evidence that a number of journalists, including two at
the Mail and Guardian, have had their phone calls, text message and internet
usage intercepted by SA intelligence agencies.

As for authorisation, all the state requires to perform a broad intercept is
the say-so of a retired judge appointed and paid by the Minister of Justice.
That means that unlike a regular court judge, whose remuneration and service
depends on an independent entity in the Judicial Services Commission, the RICA
judge is subservient to the Executive.

The access for those intercepts is easy too, given that RICA requires that the
major phone companies, internet exchanges and ISPs create real-time data feeds
into the various Interception Centres managed by the Office of Interception
Centres. This allows them to snoop on the internet and phone traffic of all
South Africans in real-time without the need to even inform the companies
providing the data.

RICA's main purpose was to make it easier for the state to legally surveil as
many people as it wanted to without too much in the way of opposition. It's
not a good law.

~~~
madiathomas
Thanks for the information. I didn't know that there is so much surveillance
from our government. Snooping on journalists isn't on at all. Now I know my
text messages aren't safe.

------
Ambroos
Is this so bad? I remember back in 2012 when I visited Berlin I had to
register my SIM with my Belgian ID and address too. It only took a few
minutes, it's not that much of a hassle. At the phone shop in Belgium where I
work we were required to ask for a name and address too (but didn't check ID's
for prepaid cards).

I doubt this will solve much terrorism-wise though. You can't expect phone
shops to verify the validity of every foreign ID and address, just supplying
fake data wouldn't be hard (and probably go unnoticed until it was 'too
late').

~~~
vbezhenar
For me it's certainly bad. Terrorism isn't a real issue, it's an excuse for
governments to take freedom from people. I want to be able to use phone and
internet without being tracked by anyone.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
This is exactly spot on.

------
stegosaurus
The last time I visited Germany I was asked for my details in order to buy a
phone, and the same to register the SIM card.

I just gave invented details both times.

So now it's impossible, eh?

A mobile phone might be a 'new invention' that you can get away with not
using, but what about transport? In my city it's been game over for years,
decades even.

The London Underground is the one subway in London. It uses a smart card, the
cash fares are a multiple of the cost, and there are CCTV cameras everywhere
anyway so you're tracked.

The red buses removed cash fares and now smart card/contactless bank card are
the only way of paying.

The central region is plastered in car licence plate recognition cameras so
you can't drive. (They exist ostensibly because there is a congestion charge
for driving in the central region).

You can cycle or walk but facial recognition kills that eventually.

So yeah, existing in London basically means the authorities know, or have the
ability to know, where you are at all times within a few metres regardless of
whether you use a phone or not, it's just a matter of how integrated these
databases are and whether anyone can be bothered.

To me it feels a lot like, in major cities anyway, this privacy battle is just
completely lost, because there are attacks on all fronts. You can have your
anonymous phone, but are you wearing face paints? Do you ever drive? Do you
ever take public transport?

The further you go out of the city, assuming you don't have a mobile phone, I
suppose there are fewer data points available. You can roam about in farmer's
fields or something, no cameras there yet. Maybe the minor cities have
analogue cameras, or they're turned off due to funding, or whatever.

It's gone beyond something to be depressed or feel a call to action about at
this point I feel - it's a bit like a lion chasing a gazelle - it just is.
Fighting against this individual initiative feels good, but is it ultimately
futile?

The actions required in order to attempt not to fall into these databases seem
to have gone from "don't use your real name online" to "don't drive a car" to
"don't take trains with your bank card" to "pay cash on the bus" to...
eventually it's just done, all of it's tracked, I can pay with cash at the
local store but there's a digital IP camera in the corner so sooner or later
they know it anyway.

And the rational amongst us know that it's not about us. It means nothing that
I can go 'off the grid'. What means something is that society as a whole is
able to appreciate this, and I think the number of intrusions is high enough
now that they simply can't. It's like asking people to go without oxygen. It's
everywhere.

The fight I'm really concerned with is privacy within the home, in private
establishments. I want to know that conversations between me and my friends
stay within that box, that private sphere. Miniaturization and propagation of
technology just seems to make that an impossible goal, though.

I don't want it, but I really feel like privacy is dead, we just don't fully
know it yet.

~~~
stegosaurus
One thing I am interested in is visualizing a journey, or an average day, and
considering the global view of it.

Has anyone attempted such a thing? For example, on my commute to work I might
pass a security camera, tap in my smart card, pass a few more cameras, spend
50 mins on a predefined route (unless I jumped a fence which a camera would
probably see me doing), etc etc.

So on the left side of the 'video', you would have me walking about doing
stuff, and on the right side, you can have a google-maps overlay of what's
actually happening, little pop ups 'stegosaurus buys a pack of chewing gum',
etc.

The idea has been floating around in my head for a while, I don't know why or
what I'd hope it would achieve, just seems like a fun way to illustrate the
problem, if it even is a problem and not just a natural progression.

------
gedsic
According to the text, they want to achieve this by forcing vendors/providers
to check the ID of the buyer, even for prepaid SIMs.

------
EGreg
Anonymity can be obtained in one of two ways:

1) Building up a tree of accounts from anonymous services like mailinator and
anonymously bought sim cards and phones

2) Hijacking random people's equipment in order to do 1.

By banning anonymous services, people will have to turn to temporary hijacking
to achieve the same ends.

------
harperlee
I know for a fact that there are big banks that don't even have the ID of lots
of clients. I'm skeptical of the speed that telcos will apply on the
remediation of all these clients. I actually believe the existing clients
might stay undocumented forever.

------
Kequc
I didn't even know you could get an anonymous sim. The gauntlet of questions I
was asked and the paperwork the salesman thankfully filled out for me, for a
prepaid sim, was dizzying.

Obviously if I knew I could have just bought one off a shelf I would have.

------
gozur88
When I was vacationing in Germany years ago I couldn't get a prepaid phone or
a sim without having a German address. Did they make it easier only to now
make it more difficult?

------
orbitingpluto
Did I read that right? Complete address required?

First you get rid of the public payphones, then you require a valid address
for a mobile. Poof! The homeless truly can disappear.

------
ChrisArchitect
as a tourist, first priority on the ground in a new country is to get a data
connection. I had more difficulty in Germany than other EU countries visited
around the same time. Despite promise of a handful of prepaid sim's available
everywhere, activation was a roadblock because no local credit card.
Eventually found my way to an O2 store where they used their own _store
address_ to activate for me and it was all good

~~~
05
There's a Wiki specifically for that purpose [1]. I had minimal problems
buying Fyve (Vodafone MVNO) SIM cards two years ago, activated at the point of
purchase if I remember correctly. I had to cut them to Nano SIM size myself
though..

[1] [http://prepaid-data-sim-card.wikia.com/wiki/Germany](http://prepaid-data-
sim-card.wikia.com/wiki/Germany)

------
jasiek
Dang, I wonder what would happen if someone were to use fake ID "issued" the
Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh.

~~~
coldcode
I'm an official in the country of Nagorno-Karabakh, all of our ID's are fake.

------
btreesOfSpring
let's just add to the servicewüste[0] of dealing with communication companies
in Germany.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste)

------
guard-of-terra
Yet another example of "terrorists hurt you, so we're going to hurt you to
compensate".

Can we please think of something to stop this?

------
venomsnake
Oh well. I will create a MVNO in some of the tax heavens. Couple of roaming
agreements and we are set. And just issue sim cards at large. It will be more
expensive. But doable.

