The takeaway is really, "People buy the products they think is best," with no bias, no judgement, no inference as to what/why/how since that what/why/how is not available.

You can make guesses based on historical sales data; the $399/$499 iPad did outsell the $199 Kindle Fire, for example, and you can also say that the vast majority of smartphones sold are Android, and that they share a characteristic ASP below half of Apple's iPhone, just like the vast majority of PCs sold are Windows, and that they also have an ASP characteristic about half of Apple's Mac.

People really are trying to make good choices for themselves, and people do fail, but in aggregate it seems silly to paint the entire population as "depressingly ignorant" as you seem to want to. That perspective is the same as Mac elitists of yesteryear prior to iOS and the current generation of Macs when comparing 95/XP to OS8/9, and I don't think you want to be associated with them.

In fact, it's also the same kind of perspective Linux enthusiasts such as whm, today, adhere to, as well.

"Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people downloading Opera, despite it being essentially inferiour to its competetion."

That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep.

---

I don´t think I understand what the iOS ecosystem is, in a manner to make an informed opinion. So yes, it must be my subjective opinion.

Looking at it from a hardware standpoint, and considering the kind of applications I want to use, then the N7 does seem superiour. But then again, maybe people aren't just surfing the net, streaming content, watching movies, youtube, using Google maps or Gmail (or playing poker, WSOP poker is fun. I think Skype or doing chatroulette in the toilette would also be right up the N7s alley ).

edit:

@OrangeCream

I'd like to make it clear again that I don't think there's anything wrong with Apple hardware. If someone gave me an iPhone I'd happily use it. If I didn't have an N7, I'd also gladly use an iPad mini.

I am not making the comparison to someone who, for example, purchased Windows ME when Windows 2000 was available.

"Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people downloading Opera, despite it being essentially inferiour to its competetion."

That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep.

---

I don´t think I understand what the iOS ecosystem is, in a manner to make an informed opinion. So yes, it must be my subjective opinion.

Looking at it from a hardware standpoint, and considering the kind of applications I want to use, then the N7 does seem superior. But then again, maybe people aren't just surfing the net, streaming content, watching movies, youtube, using Google maps or Gmail (or playing poker, WSOP poker is fun. I think Skype or doing chatroulette in the toilette would also be right up the N7s alley )..

Did you miss my post where I highlighted the aspects where the N7 is inferior?

Let me repost:1) It's thinner and lighter than the N72) It's got a more powerful GPU than the N73) It's got better cameras than the N74) It's got a visually better display than the N7 (brightness, contrast, gamut)5) It's got better battery life than the N76) It's got better tablet optimized apps than the N7

That ignores the ecosystem aspects you brought up:7) You can stream to Apple TV8) You can upgrade to tablet versions of your apps (the dearth of tablet optimized apps on Android means you have to use phone versions of apps)9) You can share accessories with other iPhone 5 or iPad 4 devices in your household (a lack of common accessories in the Android world makes this difficult)

"Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people downloading Opera, despite it being essentially inferiour to its competetion."

That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep.

---

I don´t think I understand what the iOS ecosystem is, in a manner to make an informed opinion. So yes, it must be my subjective opinion.

Looking at it from a hardware standpoint, and considering the kind of applications I want to use, then the N7 does seem superior. But then again, maybe people aren't just surfing the net, streaming content, watching movies, youtube, using Google maps or Gmail (or playing poker, WSOP poker is fun. I think Skype or doing chatroulette in the toilette would also be right up the N7s alley )..

Did you miss my post where I highlighted the aspects where the N7 is inferior?

Let me repost:1) It's thinner and lighter than the N72) It's got a more powerful GPU than the N73) It's got better cameras than the N74) It's got a visually better display than the N7 (brightness, contrast, gamut)5) It's got better battery life than the N76) It's got better tablet optimized apps than the N7

That ignores the ecosystem aspects you brought up:7) You can stream to Apple TV8) You can upgrade to tablet versions of your apps (the dearth of tablet optimized apps on Android means you have to use phone versions of apps)9) You can share accessories with other iPhone 5 or iPad 4 devices in your household (a lack of common accessories in the Android world makes this difficult)

1) Sure.

2) Yeah OK. The N7 is OK though. It plays 1080p movies without problems (GPU accelerated) (that's the most stressing thing I could think of putting it through). I'm honestly not seeing 7" tablets as much else than Angry Birds and the like, so I don't know how much that matters once you're past good enough.

3) True, even two. I don't think I'd use the N7 for anything other than video chat, which it judging by the Ars review does fine.

4) And a lower resolution.

5) Toms Hardware says the N7 lasts 7:30 while browsing and playing MP3 at max brightness. 9:40 max. brightness while watching movies. So you can use it all day, that's all you need.

6) Maybe you're right. I only care about browsing, youtube, movies, streaming, gmail, google maps, reading documents, WSOP, and well, I think you get my preferences. And they're all optimized for my tablet, or don't need to be optimized (a movie is fullscreen for example). I don't know what apps that I should be using that isn't optimized.

7) I see

8) That is clearly something I am not understanding, as I view my apps to work at my screensize and up. For my browser I had to select desktop mode, and that was it.

2) Yeah OK. The N7 is OK though. It plays 1080p movies without problems (GPU accelerated) (that's the most stressing thing I could think of putting it through). I'm honestly not seeing 7" tablets as much else than Angry Birds and the like, so I don't know how much that matters once you're past good enough.

3) True, even two. I don't think I'd use the N7 for anything other than video chat, which it judging by the Ars review does fine.

So people are sheep because *you'd* only use your tablet for certain purposes? Again, do you realize how ridiculous you are?

"Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people downloading Opera, despite it being essentially inferiour to its competetion."

That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep.

I don't think you understand what the 'sheep' reference is. It's that people follow others and do not think for themselves. It can be applied to Opera's userbase just as validly.

Would you mind doing that then? That's something I wouldn't want to miss.

Metasyntactic wrote:

Hinton wrote:

I don´t think I understand what the iOS ecosystem is, in a manner to make an informed opinion. So yes, it must be my subjective opinion.

So the sheep analogy is *not* apt. you are saying htat people are sheep for picking osmtehing that you admit you are *not* informed on. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

I'm informed on how the Apple would work for the applications I wanted to use a tablet for. I read the reviews of both the 7" Android tablets, and the iPads prior to purchasing the N7 (I also considered the iPad retina, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my pocket. That's because I am not using my tablet as a desktop replacement.). Had the iPad mini been out when I purchased the N7, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a tablet should be used for.

See how I used the word subjective here.

Don't move the goalposts please to it only being me discussing the Android ecosystem vs. the iOS ecosystem. What the iOS ecosystem is beyond iTunes and the Apple store, that has to be something I am indeed ill informed about, since people keep talking about it as if I'm missing out on something. Though the concept of both iTunes and being locked into the Apple store is something I think is a negative.

2) Yeah OK. The N7 is OK though. It plays 1080p movies without problems (GPU accelerated) (that's the most stressing thing I could think of putting it through). I'm honestly not seeing 7" tablets as much else than Angry Birds and the like, so I don't know how much that matters once you're past good enough.

3) True, even two. I don't think I'd use the N7 for anything other than video chat, which it judging by the Ars review does fine.

So people are sheep because *you'd* only use your tablet for certain purposes? Again, do you realize how ridiculous you are?

Because this thread was so bloody nuanced to start with, no I don't realize that.

So what /is/ people using their iPad minis for that differs from my uses? Making duckface to the mirror with their rearfacing camera?

"Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people downloading Opera, despite it being essentially inferiour to its competetion."

That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep.

I don't think you understand what the 'sheep' reference is. It's that people follow others and do not think for themselves. It can be applied to Opera's userbase just as validly.

Would you mind doing that then? That's something I wouldn't want to miss.

Um. I did it right there. It's in the part in literal quotes.

Quote:

Metasyntactic wrote:

Hinton wrote:

I don´t think I understand what the iOS ecosystem is, in a manner to make an informed opinion. So yes, it must be my subjective opinion.

So the sheep analogy is *not* apt. you are saying htat people are sheep for picking osmtehing that you admit you are *not* informed on. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

I'm informed on how the Apple would work for the applications I wanted to use a tablet for. I read the reviews of both the 7" Android tablets, and the iPads prior to purchasing the N7 (I also considered the iPad retina, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my pocket. That's because I am not using my tablet as a desktop replacement.). Had the iPad mini been out when I purchased the N7, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a tablet should be used for.

See how I used the word subjective here.

Yes. I have no problem with you saying *subjectively* the iPad Mini is not a better choice for *you*. But htat's not what you originally said. You were making a statement about iPad Mini being a poorer choice for everyone else as well.

So what /is/ people using their iPad minis for that differs from my uses?

For example, accessing the Apple appstore.

Right off the bat the iPad mini is better suited for over a different platform altogether because it will sync perfectly with my existing set of Apps/Services and will behave the same across all of them.

Adding an Android device into the mix would complicate things enormously for me. I would have to determine if all the apps i care about are available. If not find replacements. If so, hope they have the same functionality, quality and featuresets. I'd have to figure out an appropriate system to synchronizing my media and services between Android/Apple, etc. etc.

I'm informed on how the Apple would work for the applications I wanted to use a tablet for. I read the reviews of both the 7" Android tablets, and the iPads prior to purchasing the N7 (I also considered the iPad retina, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my pocket. That's because I am not using my tablet as a desktop replacement.). Had the iPad mini been out when I purchased the N7, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a tablet should be used for.

See how I used the word subjective here.

Don't move the goalposts please to it only being me discussing the Android ecosystem vs. the iOS ecosystem. What the iOS ecosystem is beyond iTunes and the Apple store, that has to be something I am indeed ill informed about, since people keep talking about it as if I'm missing out on something. Though the concept of both iTunes and being locked into the Apple store is something I think is a negative.

Quote:

I'm informed on how the PC would work for the applications I wanted to use a computer for. I read the reviews of both the Windows PC, and the iBook prior to purchasing the iBook (I also considered a ThinkPad, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my bag. That's because I am not using my laptop as a desktop replacement.). Had the X41 been out when I purchased the iBook, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a computer should be used for.

Essentially you're saying people who don't come to the same conclusion you do are sheep. That's the same argument that occurred a decade ago against Windows, and even for iPods and against iPods.

Before the iPod took off, buying them was an act of defiance because they weren't the norm:

Quote:

I'm informed on how the player would work for the media I wanted to use PMP for. I read the reviews of both the competitors, and the iPod prior to purchasing the iPod (I also considered a Nomad, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my pocket. That's because I am not using my iPod as a jukebox.). Had the Nomad Zen been out when I purchased the iPod, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a PMP should be used for.

After iPods took off, then, buying them became associated with "sheep", despite years of continued refinement and good design:

Quote:

I'm informed on how the player would work for the media I wanted to use PMP for. I read the reviews of both the iPods, and the Zen Micro prior to purchasing the Zen Micro (I also considered a iPod classic, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my shirt pocket. That's because I am not using my PMP as a jukebox.). Had the iPod nano been out when I purchased the Zen Micro, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a PMP should be used for.

"Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people downloading Opera, despite it being essentially inferiour to its competetion."

That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep.

I don't think you understand what the 'sheep' reference is. It's that people follow others and do not think for themselves. It can be applied to Opera's userbase just as validly.

Would you mind doing that then? That's something I wouldn't want to miss.

Um. I did it right there. It's in the part in literal quotes.

You claimed to be able to apply it just as validly.

Metasyntactic wrote:

Hinton wrote:

Metasyntactic wrote:

Hinton wrote:

I don´t think I understand what the iOS ecosystem is, in a manner to make an informed opinion. So yes, it must be my subjective opinion.

So the sheep analogy is *not* apt. you are saying htat people are sheep for picking osmtehing that you admit you are *not* informed on. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

I'm informed on how the Apple would work for the applications I wanted to use a tablet for. I read the reviews of both the 7" Android tablets, and the iPads prior to purchasing the N7 (I also considered the iPad retina, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my pocket. That's because I am not using my tablet as a desktop replacement.). Had the iPad mini been out when I purchased the N7, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a tablet should be used for.

See how I used the word subjective here.

Yes. I have no problem with you saying *subjectively* the iPad Mini is not a better choice for *you*. But htat's not what you originally said. You were making a statement about iPad Mini being a poorer choice for everyone else as well.

That's because I am under the belief that my usage pattern is typical for the people purchasing these tablets.

So what /is/ people using their iPad minis for that differs from my uses?

For example, accessing the Apple appstore.

Right off the bat the iPad mini is better suited for over a different platform altogether because it will sync perfectly with my existing set of Apps/Services and will behave the same across all of them.

Adding an Android device into the mix would complicate things enormously for me. I would have to determine if all the apps i care about are available. If not find replacements. If so, hope they have the same functionality, quality and featuresets. I'd have to figure out an appropriate system to synchronizing my media and services between Android/Apple, etc. etc.

That doesn't sound like a superiour ecosystem, that sounds like being locked into a platform.

Yes. Until you provide a reason why it could not be applied validly to Opera, that's precisely what i'm doing.

"That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep."

Metasyntactic wrote:

Quote:

That's because I am under the belief that my usage pattern is typical for the people purchasing these tablets.

How can you have that belief when you also say straight up that you are uninformed.

I tend to try to avoid strong beliefs about areas i know little about. You tend ot go in boldly making statements about people being sheep despite not knowing much about the situation at all.

I'm not claiming to be uninformed. I am claiming to not have absolute understanding about what people refer to when they talk about a superiour ecosystem, and platform optimized apps. Now that I feel that you're just locked into a platform, I think I have a good feeling what you're on about when you refer to the iOS/Apple system.

Obviously when the apps I can think of using either is optimized for Android, or doesn´t need to, I again have to ask what these apps are that isn't that I ought to be using, that suffers from not being optimized for a tablet.

And you have a tendency to make sweeping statements about other people. I didn´t boldly go in and refer to people as sheep. Someone asked me if I was talking about sheep with a statement, that's where that came from.

Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people queuing up to purchase a more expensive product that is essentially inferiour to its competition."

The only people I called sheep where the ones who'd queue up in the rain to purchase the product. I am sure you're familiar with the people who'll camp outside the Apple store for hours, or even days, prior to release. Those were the ones I refered to as having a sheep like behaviour, and no-one else.

Yes. I have no problem with you saying *subjectively* the iPad Mini is not a better choice for *you*. But htat's not what you originally said. You were making a statement about iPad Mini being a poorer choice for everyone else as well.

That's because I am under the belief that my usage pattern is typical for the people purchasing these tablets.

Even at their current weakest market share ever Apple still maintained a majority... which means you cannot be typical because you did not pick the "typical" tablet.

If you are typical, you are also a sheep, or if you aren't a sheep, you're wasting a tremendous amount of effort and energy coming to the same conclusion the sheep do.

From a biological standpoint the "sheep" mentality is beneficial; moving with the flock makes it harder for a predator to pick you off and allows you protection from herdmates who happen to cover your flank.

The "typical" user plays games on their tablet, shops online from their tablet, streams video to their tablet, etc.

You can't say "sheep" without being a hypocrite and then say,

Quote:

I'd like to make it clear again that I don't think there's anything wrong with Apple hardware.

EDIT: Saw your correction wrt to sheep.

Quote:

Though the sheep reference is probably apt, when you look at people queuing up to purchase a more expensive product that is essentially inferiour to its competition.

You still have the problem that you view the product as essentially inferior when it is not. People queue up to get something superior, in high demand, and when they believe it is going to be difficult to acquire; see the iPhone 5, a month later, and it still has 3-4 weeks ship time.

The product you compare to is not inferior, and is in general better, and the only question is if it is in fact $130 better or not.

You are not typical at all because you didn't buy an iPad.

You later ask what you do with an iPad; take pictures, in fact, is something you do with an iPad (and ranks 6th behind the iPhone 3GS on flickr and ahead of most Samsung cameraphones)

Besides taking pictures, there are games (which you don't do much of), as well as online shopping.

I'm informed on how the Apple would work for the applications I wanted to use a tablet for. I read the reviews of both the 7" Android tablets, and the iPads prior to purchasing the N7 (I also considered the iPad retina, but decided against it because of size. I wanted something that would fit in my pocket. That's because I am not using my tablet as a desktop replacement.). Had the iPad mini been out when I purchased the N7, I'm informed enough to make the same correct decision, even if priced equal, of what I admit, is my subjective view of what a tablet should be used for.

See how I used the word subjective here.

Don't move the goalposts please to it only being me discussing the Android ecosystem vs. the iOS ecosystem. What the iOS ecosystem is beyond iTunes and the Apple store, that has to be something I am indeed ill informed about, since people keep talking about it as if I'm missing out on something. Though the concept of both iTunes and being locked into the Apple store is something I think is a negative.

Paul Thurrott, Apple Sheep:

Quote:

The iPad mini is the BMW of the tablet world. It’s nicer looking and better made than the competition. In this case, you really do get what you pay for....So here I go again: The iPad mini runs iOS, of which I’m not a fan. But the combination of the hardware—which is both beautiful and an ideal size—and the irreproachable content ecosystem simply puts this device over the top. Yes, the Amazon Kindle Fire HD and Google Nexus 7 are viable alternatives, and both are very good. But the iPad mini is the top of the heap. And if money is no object, I have a hard time recommending otherwise....While some Apple products lend themselves to easy criticism, the new iPod touch and iPad mini are pretty incredible. Yes, the same pricing complaints arise, and of course both are based on the out of date iOS system, which, if I’m reading the tea leaves right, is about to change in hopefully remarkable ways. But the quality of these devices leaves me speechless. Both are beautiful, thin, light, and remarkably well-made. Both are market leaders. And yes, both are highly recommended. If Microsoft, Amazon, or Google intends to take on Apple in the markets in which these products compete, they’re going to need to step it up.

People value different features differently. Your "sheep" simply care about things that you obviously don't. Though I suspect that you would be the first to point to the quality of your N7 if the shoe were on the other foot...

Yes. Until you provide a reason why it could not be applied validly to Opera, that's precisely what i'm doing.

"That would have worked if I'd do something equivalent to standing outside in the rain to download it. Also, with the user base of Opera, you're kinda missing the flock analogy to sheep."

Saying i'm missing something is not an attack against my position. You have to actually point out what is being missing. What about opera users makes them incapable of acting like sheep. i.e. what makes them incapable of being followers. Of doing something because someone else is doing it, etc. etc.

I'm not claiming to be uninformed. I am claiming to not have absolute understanding about what people refer to when they talk about a superiour ecosystem, and platform optimized apps.

I'm not claiming to be uninformed. I just don't know what people think about when making decisions concerning the topic i'm engaging in...

that's the very definition of uninformed!

Quote:

The only people I called sheep where the ones who'd queue up in the rain to purchase the product. I am sure you're familiar with the people who'll camp outside the Apple store for hours, or even days, prior to release.

Again, what proof do you have that all these people are doing it because they're sheep, and not, say, because they actually find the products extremely valuable to themselves?

You may not like their value judgement. After all, you disparage me for wanting consistency across my devices. But that doesn't make me a sheep for continuing to prefer Apple over Android. I'm not doing it because other people are doing it. I'm doing it because i value consistency and i get far more of that from Apple. And that was simply *one* metric by which i make my decisions. There are many more. However, i only needed to show one to demonstrate that your egregious lack of insight.

Don't forget the OP, and damn near everyone in this thread who went along with his public wank. And in a way, the mods for not closing it.

Maybe if the OP had stood alone they would, but people did actually debate.

But Metasyntactics predictable and consistant behaviour does become tiring. An endless and pointless quotefest that ends up in an ad hominem attack, and then an accusation of posting and running when he´s worn you out.

Don't forget the OP, and damn near everyone in this thread who went along with his public wank. And in a way, the mods for not closing it.

Maybe if the OP had stood alone they would, but people did actually debate.

But Metasyntactics predictable and consistant behaviour does become tiring. An endless and pointless quotefest that ends up in an ad hominem attack, and then an accusation of posting and running when he´s worn you out.

Waaaaah. I admit to Trolling and can't put forth a cogent position to save my life. So I'm going to lash out at people who point that out. Waaaah.

An endless and pointless quotefest that ends up in an ad hominem attack, and then an accusation of posting and running when he´s worn you out.

You forgot the "miring the discussion in blindingly obtuse pedantry" phase of the process.

Interesting...

I didn't realize that pointing out actual, rational, reasons for why people choose the Apple ecosystem was 'blindingly obtuse pedantry'. But perhaps it is in your head. Wouldn't have pegged you for an ABA type though Jim...

Brought home the mini last night. Wife is getting one now. This device is just as much of a threat to Sony and Nintendo as it is to Amazon and Google. Why get a Vita or Wii U when you can have a killer gaming device plus a fuckton functionality more for just a little bit more? I think every kid. It blows my mind why anyone would want a Sony or Nintendo device.