
The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design - SirLJ
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/aug/25/the-tyranny-of-chairs
======
mattlondon
Just out of curiosity, am I the only one that seems to be happy to just sit on
a dining chair when at my desk?

When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office
chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a _lot_ of energy researching and
discussing chairs etc.

I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day.
But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old wooden dining chair. No
pain. No aches. No RSI. No CTS.

I've been doing this for decades and nothing seems to have gone wrong yet. I
do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems?

Are all the uber-expensive office chairs just snake oil? Or have I just been
lucky?

~~~
2OEH8eoCRo0
>I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems?

I think there are a lot of stressed and unconditioned office workers who want
some magical device to solve everything. Vertical mice, split vertical
keyboards, expensive chairs. None of it replaces exercise.

Might be a controversial opinion.

~~~
nostromo
This is my experience.

I had lower back pain while sitting at a desk when I was younger.

Once I started lifting weights, and specifically doing heavy deadlifts, I've
never had back pain again.

Interestingly, a lot of people are afraid deadlifts will _cause_ back pain,
but in my case at least, it _cured_ back pain.

~~~
stouset
General fitness and strength training is just about the closest thing we have
to a miracle cure for a wide array of common issues.

~~~
2OEH8eoCRo0
Yup. Too bad it doesn't come in pill form.

------
scrooched_moose
If anyone is looking for a better chair, we found this was a great time to
pick up Herman Miller Aerons off of craigslist.

There's a steady stream of small-to-medium offices in our area closing, and
they're all liquidating office furniture. We picked up 2 for $500.

They're a massive improvement over my $80 chair that was fine for a few hours
a week pre-WFH, and my back is feeling much better.

~~~
supernova87a
This isn't exactly work related, but do people have opinions on the Herman
Miller Eames chair? You know, this iconic look? [1]

I ask because the lockdown has me fantasizing about distracting myself with
replacement stuff for the home.

But this chair is freakin $5000. Is it that good to be worth it? Or are any of
those $1000 knockoffs acceptable quality?

[1] [https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge-
seating...](https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge-
seating/eames-lounge-chair-and-ottoman/)

~~~
scrooched_moose
We have a 60s hand-me-down Eames.

It is a very good chair. The build quality is fantastic and stylistically it
still holds up.

It is truly a "lounge chair" though - almost a semi-recliner. I rarely use it
if it's a social situation because it sits back so far. It's amazing for
relaxing and watching TV or a movie though.

I'm assuming the quality has held up. I've never tried a knock off.

------
adamnemecek
The worst chair in the world is the American high school/college desk+chair
combo like this one

[https://www.schooloutlet.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Screen...](https://www.schooloutlet.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Screen%20Shot%202016-07-13%20at%2010.00.49%20AM.png)

The people making and buying these place are committing crimes against
humanity.

~~~
grugagag
It's not comfortable but I don't think that's the worst chair especially if
you pay attention how you sit in it. The worst chair is the cheap office chair
that is often misaligned, wobbly and encouraging you to rest your back in a
wrong way. And the free rotating swivel makes sure you are you really have a
bad posture and not being able to sit properly. I relearned to sit down and
now prefer a rigid surface and most often don't rest my back on anything. If
your back is tired and you need to use the backrest it's time to get up and
walk around a bit.

~~~
adamnemecek
You shouldn't have to pay attention to how you sit in it. there is literally
only one position to sit in.

~~~
KozmoNau7
You can almost certainly improve how you sit down. A lot of people just sort
of flop down and sit with their hips slid forward and a pronounced bend in
their back. Anecdotally I have also noticed many of the same people
complaining about a lack of legroom in trains, airplanes, cars and so on.

If they would simply sit down by pushing their butt and lower back into the
chair instead of lazily flopping down, there would be plenty of space.

(Not directed at those people with long legs, who do have genuine legroom
issues even when sitting up straight)

------
Theodores
Chairs need a failsafe mode. This is what I call better design.

Recently my father sat on a chair that collapsed underneath him. It was a
seemingly okay teak garden chair that had been recently in service and offered
up to important guests. So in that way it was good that it was him rather than
his brother in law or elderly neighbour that received a bruised elbow.

This got me thinking about the safety of chairs. This chair - a folding chair
- really should have included a wire around the seat so that it had a failsafe
mode in order to prevent complete failure once the wood of the seat eventually
gave up.

There should be proper testing of seats to see if they are fit for purpose.
Car seats for babies can't be passed on because there could be some crack in
the polystyrene, yet regular chairs have no standards for safety. It is not a
big deal until such time as you see a valued relative come a cropper.

Design is how it works and chairs are not designed to have a failsafe aspect
to the design.

~~~
lightgreen
Realistically, how many people get injured from collapsed chairs? I think less
than from fire or drowned or something.

Just buy not the cheapest chair, and you will be safe.

~~~
Theodores
There is no such thing as an accident. If your chair breaks in a restaurant
you can sue them. I bet the restaurant owners never thought of this when
setting up. Injuries can also be quite serious, it depends on the circumstance
and the individual.

Your argument is the same for airbags, seatbelts and wearing hard hats. We
live in a Health and Safety world where liability exists. Except for chairs.

------
jamespetercook
I don’t think I’ve ever found a chair that I felt completely comfortable in. I
like to sit upright and feel alert and most chairs seem to be made for
relaxing. I’ve always wondered if it’s just me or not, and have often thought
about designing a chair but realistically I don’t have the skills :(

~~~
TACIXAT
I have this same issue. I've never seen a chair that supports shoulders back
and down good posture. They all seem to hunch or arch forward. None offer the
mid back support needed to put your chest forward.

Same situation for sitting cross legged. My solution for posture has been a
standing desk. I never really made any progress on my posture until I started
standing.

------
blunte
At age 35, otherwise healthy and having spent 10 years in Herman Miller Aeron
chairs, I had hip problems and a small but growing waistline.

Then I transitioned to working from home and built my own standing desk (sadly
before the very affordable mechanical Ikea standing desk was first released...
But which I have now happily used for years).

The first few weeks were challenging, but within three months I could stand
for 12+ hours a day, and my hip problems went away. Also my overall energy
seemed higher, and afternoon energy dips became less noticeable.

For 13 years now I stand for virtually all of my day, and I have no back or
hip problems. I do have slight spider veins on my ankles and knees, and that
may be due in part to the standing. But it is cosmetic and barely visible, and
totally worth the trade.

~~~
grugagag
How do you type standing for long periods of time? Do you rest your arms on
the table?

~~~
chiefalchemist
If you're using a mouse my PT told me to "anchor" your elbow on the desk so
you use your wrist to move the mouse, not your upper back. This is true
whether standing or sitting.

There was a good reason I was in PT and was told this ;)

~~~
blunte
I've always used a mouse with my fingertips, and my outer hand bone is resting
on the mouse mat. Rarely am I pushing the mouse around with my entire hand or
arm...

~~~
chiefalchemist
It's not your "entire arm" per se. It's that - per the PT - the shoulder and
upper back aren't designed for repetitive micro-movements. That is, unless
your elbow is anchored your shoulder is likely doing more work than it should.

------
raindropm
For anyone that have sore butt syndrome, here's my personal tip: improve blood
circulation of your...butt!

I bought Steelcase Think six month ago to replace my $50 chair, and while it
is good chair with good price and comfy-but-firm seat cushion, it cannot solve
my chronic "sore butt" problem. Half and hour in the chair and my butt
soreness begin to appear. Doesn't help that I'm the type that sit in front of
monitor all day. I know I need to move more frequently, or did some light
exercise or stretching, but when you need to work, you need to sit anyway.

Then I read that the soreness is the result of lack of blood circulation, so I
decide to give thing that improve it a try: a beads car seat. You know, the
vintage-looking one taxi driver use.

THE SORENESS IS GONE. It's been several months since. Now I can sit all day
long without feeling a thing.

Note that the version I use is the 'beads mat' with rubber texture on the
bottom(This is important because it help prevent the beads seat from slipping)

~~~
mpol
Sore butts are a common theme in cycling :) On longer rides people might
prefer harder saddles. A softer seating clamps down on your soft tissue and
prevents proper blood circulation. Having a harder seating will make you sit
on your sit bones and have your blood flow free. The sit bones can start to
feel a bit irritated after some time, but that is the time to get up for a
walk. If your soft tissue (from lack of blood flow) starts hurting, it is
because it is starting to get damaged. Even if you would walk for an hour and
sit again, the pain would come back instantly.

~~~
raindropm
That's new to me! because I never ride a bike more than 10 minutes at a time
haha.

Everything you describe is what I experience. I have good time sitting on my
old wooden chair, and yes, the butt is free of pain (but my back hurt instead,
because its backrest is in upright 90 degree angle) also there is not armrest
whatsoever so I can't work for long....

well, maybe that's the point, I need to move more.

------
rkagerer
I hate how the first thing this site does is make me lie and say "I'm Happy"
about their cookies.

------
war1025
I read somewhere that if you want good posture, just sit on the edge of the
seat. So that's what I do and it seems to work fine.

Chairs with backs are nice, but it seems like they will always just lead to
terrible posture.

~~~
NicolasGorden
I've used a posture corrector. It's really very effective and cheap. Love it
since it makes me conscious every time I start slouching.

------
amanaplanacanal
We would do better for ourselves to get rid of chairs entirely and sit on the
floor. Getting down and up from the floor is a natural human movement that
would keep us all fitter into old age.

~~~
johnchristopher
Have you tried sitting on the floor and work with a keyboard ? Do you have a
setup you could share ?

I suppose Japanese should have something fitting but that might be a
stereotype.

~~~
dmvinson
[https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-
ahs13/](https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-ahs13/) is an
example of someone doing this in their home. Personally, my setup is a coffee
table along with a zafu (buckwheat hull filled floor cushion) and sheepskins
or a zabuton to cushion the floor a little. It's very comfortable, although
I'd like to also have a standing desk to go with it. Coffee tables tend to be
a pretty good height for this purpose if you want to avoid purchasing
something custom. Besides that it's just a regular desk setup, albeit missing
drawers or storage on the table.

~~~
johnchristopher
> [https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-
> ahs13/](https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-ahs13/)

Interesting reading, thanks.

Would you be so kind as to share a picture of your setup ? To have a rough
idea of heights, space arrangements, elbow positioning, etc. ?

~~~
dmvinson
Yeah, here is what I'm working with as of now. Moved recently (like everyone
else) and still getting an office setup, but this is the basics. As far as
height, I'd say it's a very ergonomically sound setup when in kneeling
position with the cushion in between your feet. Laptop just below eye level,
arms level, etc.

I think the biggest benefits are it forces you to move and adjust a little bit
more than in a chair, and forces you to use your muscles to sit properly much
more. Would highly recommend to anyone.
[https://ibb.co/XYN3HFx](https://ibb.co/XYN3HFx)

The coffee table is [https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/lisabo-coffee-table-ash-
veneer-...](https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/lisabo-coffee-table-ash-
veneer-70297658/) The sheepskin is from sheepskin town, but any cushioning
that softens the floor for your ankles/knees is good.

~~~
johnchristopher
Thanks a lot, much appreciated !

I was browsing though the different pillow/cushion and was a bit worried at
first by the $150 zafu/zabuton but it looks like there are ~$50 ones so I can
give it a try.

------
gagabity
The Ikea POANG recliner chair, you know the one, is the most comfortable chair
I have ever used, you need to rearrange your desk setup because its so low and
leaned back but once you have it destroys any other option out there, your
back is just relaxed.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
I can sit and read in mine but I can't imagine trying to work in it.

------
polote
I have been trying to find info on laying down desks and chairs in the past
few weeks, but there is really not a lot of people who have experienced with
it. If you had, please comment here

~~~
megameter
Here is my setup, which is a very inexpensive, low-footprint way of doing it:

1\. A large lap desk. This is a powerful tool for adding flexibility as you'll
see. It lets you keep all the peripherals near you. I currently use it with a
USB hub, a 65% mechanical keyboard, a keypad with macro functions, and a
trackball mouse.

2\. A floor chair with reclining functions. The one I have is one of the
cheapest on Amazon, basically a folding backrest with a bit of cushion.

3\. A laptop/monitor arm and a shelf to hang it off of.

With a laptop angled at 90 degrees so that the screen is overhead, I have a
fully supinated setup on the floor, with the floor chair folded most of the
way back for support.

But it gets better. With a low folding table or breakfast tray I can switch
the laptop and chair over to floor seating. Here the lap desk serves as a way
to let me move around more. This is a great way to add variety of posture and
stretch as I work, and I find that I use different positions for different
levels of intensity during the day. Supination is better for passive viewing,
while upright with no support is focused, intense. Seated with the chair
reclined is the medium for "Tired but still want to work".

And then I still have more traditional feet-dangling seats I can use too.
Again, just haul over the lap desk and plug in.

The best part is, none of these items need to cost more than $100. Most are
closer to $50. So you can solve everything with an investment of perhaps
$200-300.

~~~
nfour
Sounds interesting - I have a lapboard setup as well but it could use
improvement.

Any chance you could provide some pictures?

------
spaetzleesser
It kind of sucks that computers allow us to do most of our work while sitting
in the same place. When I started working there were more reasons to get up,
take something somewhere, walk to the printer and so on. This feels much
healthier.

I don’t think any design with better chairs, stand up desks or whatever will
make it healthy to stay in the same place the whole day. If I had to choose a
career now I would definitely think about something that allows for more
walking or other activity.

------
jseliger
For people working at computers in offices, get a motorized desk that can
raised or lowered to a pre-determined height at the push of a button.
[https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-
de...](https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-desk-review-
two-years-with-a-motorized-desk/)

------
armagon
Gee, I was just thinking I needed to make some new chairs for the kitchen
table (which seems to be a somewhat challenging woodworking project, as curves
as usually called for and the way to craft them isn't obvious). I wish the
article offered more advice about what makes a good chair, or chair
alternative.

~~~
cpwright
If you are going to invest the effort in a set of dining chairs, I would
recommend watching the Wood Whisperer guild dining chair videos. I have made a
Hank chair and high chairs, but have never made a dining char. I did buy the
class and found how Marc Spagnuolo broke it down interesting and informative.

------
throwawaysea
Perhaps we need to design for a furniture-less world, where we sit and stand
as we did for most of our evolution.

~~~
lightgreen
We just need neuralink with text input and output to the visual cortex so we
could do our work literally anywhere: on the bus, lying on a bed, taking a
shower.

------
trashcan
I replaced an Aeron with a a gaming chair that was much more affordable
(although it was back-ordered for a few months). What a huge improvement! It
feels like I'm in a bucket seat in a car, which is basically what it is.

~~~
herman_toothrot
Which specific chair did you get?

~~~
trashcan
[https://secretlab.co/collections/omega-
series](https://secretlab.co/collections/omega-series). I opted for the fabric
cover to discourage my cats from chewing on it. :)

------
unnouinceput
I use my bed as my chair. My desk has wheels, so I can sit on my "chair" way
more comfortable then on any expensive chair.

------
sgt101
I got a gaming chair at the beginning of lockdown, and I propped up my desk to
get everything to the right height. The things I looked for : adjustable arm
rests, adjustable height, adjustable tilt and headrest & lumbar support.

Also buy a 28" 4k monitor, proper keyboard and mouse device of choice (I got
an apple magic pad).

All for ~ £500. It's worth the investment.

~~~
_alex_
Do you like the gaming chair? I ordered an aeron and didn’t like it, sent it
back. Need a new chair. Decade old office chair is falling apart.

~~~
sgt101
yes, it's good : [https://secretlab.co.uk/collections/titan-xl-
series](https://secretlab.co.uk/collections/titan-xl-series)

~~~
bladegash
I have the Omega and love it. Comes with a lumbar pillow too, which works
great.

------
lightgreen
Btw for those who are in London I can recommend refurbished Herman Miller
chairs from this guy
[http://www.welovechairs.co.uk/](http://www.welovechairs.co.uk/) I’m not
affiliated with him, just bought a chair from him and was very happy by the
service.

------
ezoe
Exercise ball is the best chair for me. It has the best cushioning unmatched
to any unreasonably expensive chairs. Backrest and armrests aren't necessary.
You should have developed enough core to support your weight.

You are free from developing injuries caused by long use of ordinary chair.

It's cheap and portable too.

------
BrandoElFollito
I've been sitting on a ball at the office for now 3 years. I love it.

I do not have any hard numbers, but the fact that I move around, make small
jumps , must keep balance etc. seems to be a good thing.

I was sitting on an office chair at home during lock down and I think my back
hurted more

------
LoSboccacc
> The real science of ergonomics, Cranz argues, should point designers toward
> chair design that supports and enables the body’s need for movement, not
> stillness – with seats that angle downward in front, for example, and have a
> base that’s flexible enough for the sitter to shift their body weight from
> leg to leg

weird then not finding mention of the Varier Balans chairs.

I had one growing up, and bought another one after a month of lockdown as my
home office setup wasn't meant for extended usage.

that one and a standing desk seems working well so far.

------
mspe
You could also combine furniture instead of buying an expensive standing desk:

[https://imgbox.com/9tFW5Pvs](https://imgbox.com/9tFW5Pvs)

------
blueridge
My sense is that we all just need to _move_ more: sit, stand, roll around on
the rug, squat, go for a walk, you get the idea. Basically don't spend the
entire working day in a single position.

I briefly went through a phase where I thought I'd enjoy the no-furniture
lifestyle, but it wasn't for me. It also wasn't for my partner, nor my parents
when they come to visit, nor anyone else whom I might want to invite into the
home.

I don't want to Marie Kondo the shit out of my space—I want to surround myself
with beautiful, practical pieces of furniture that I enjoy using.

I don't think most people go and try out furniture before they bring it home.
I'm talking multiple trips to a furniture store, where you go and sit and
explore the same few pieces over and over and until you're sure you've found
something you love.

You've got to stay seated for a bit to figure out where the pressure points
are, whether or not the angle or depth of a seat makes your legs go numb, or
hurts your back, etc. Do you like a firm seat? Do you like to sit "on" the
cushions, or "down in to" the cushions? You want something with a high seat,
or a low seat? There's a lot of furniture out there. It pays to take time to
do the research, learn about how it's built, learn about different fabric
types and how they affect the way a cushion holds it shape, then spend a good
deal of money on a quality product.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference in quality between buying a chair from
West Elm and buying a chair from Knoll. For instance, I think this is one of
the most comfortable and practical chairs on the planet:
[https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-
chair](https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-chair)

We use it as a dining chair, and as a reading chair with an ottoman, and as a
standard desk task chair. It's truly wonderful. Is it expensive? Yes it is.
But it looks great, it's built well, it has a firm and comfortable seat, and
it'll last a lifetime.

But hey, comfort is subjective, you like what you like!

Edit for those who are furniture shopping:

\- Saarinen chair linked above also comes with casters and hydraulic lift:
[https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-
chair-s...](https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-chair-swivel-
base)

\- Don't knock it, it's surprisingly comfortable for long stretches:
[https://www.knoll.com/product/brno-chair-flat-
bar](https://www.knoll.com/product/brno-chair-flat-bar)

\- Great reading chair (with ottoman) if you have the space:
[https://www.knoll.com/product/womb-chair](https://www.knoll.com/product/womb-
chair)

\- Of course, the Eames lounge chair is a classic, though if you're taller
than 5'8" go with the Tall version as you'll get a deeper seat and head
support. For those with lumbar spine issues, probably not the most
comfortable: [https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge-
seating...](https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge-
seating/eames-lounge-chair-and-ottoman/)

\- Wonderfully firm sofa, great for long meetings, reading with attention. If
you like to lounge, not great for movie nights. Durable fabric options, along
with custom leather: [https://www.roomandboard.com/catalog/living/sofas-and-
lovese...](https://www.roomandboard.com/catalog/living/sofas-and-
loveseats/andre-sofas)

