
Westinghouse Files for Bankruptcy, in Blow to Nuclear Power (2017) - mzs
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/29/business/westinghouse-toshiba-nuclear-bankruptcy.html
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dang
Discussed at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13987046](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13987046)

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epistasis
This article is more than three years old, but the story hasn't changed much.
VC Summer was abandoned, leaving utility customers with massive bills. Vogtle
soldiers on, but seems to be unlikely to finish.

Nucleae's problems are not the politics, the problem is that basic competency
in design and construction logistics have been lost. Plans get delivered to
construction that are "unconstructable," but construction soldiers on and
wings it. Then it al has to go through design review again. And maybe redone.
Delays delays delays. Incompetence abounds.

All the partners are planning from the beginning for a massive lawsuit at the
end, and work harder to limit their liability (or create liability for
others?) than to make the project work.

Executives lie about the progress, there are guilty pleas to fraud:

[https://www.postandcourier.com/business/former-scana-
executi...](https://www.postandcourier.com/business/former-scana-executive-
pleads-guilty-to-fraud-charges-tied-to-failed-sc-nuclear-
project/article_26e23ca8-c50b-11ea-8377-e7b39854212b.html)

20 years ago, I though nuclear was essential to fighting climate change.
Today, I don't see how nuclear can ever help. We can't build it before it's
too late, and by the time we build anything other technology has completely
leapfrogged it.

We started these two AP-1000 reactors in 2008! A dozen years later we have
nothing to show for it except for bankruptcy, plea deals, billions of dollars
that would have been more effectively spent on solar and storage.

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CydeWeys
Yup. For all the people boosting nuclear power, the reality on the ground
seems to be that it just does not work anymore. It's way too expensive and
never gets done, and this problem is global, not just in the US; see e.g.
[https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/fr...](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a33499619/france-
nuclear-reactor-epr-expensive-mess/)

At some point the results have to speak for themselves, and solar/wind plus
battery storage is actually working and being built. That seems a more
realistic path forward than nuclear power, which is demonstrably failing over
and over.

~~~
kurthr
Yes, but what will we do if/when wind and solar just "doesn't work anymore".
In the US trains "don't work anymore"... but they do in other countries. This
gradual erosion of technical capability is a generic problem the US needs to
solve. Nuclear is a case study of what is wrong and where the problems are
(political, business, education).

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manicdee
The way the US chose to address accidents in rail was to armour plate their
rail cars. In Europe they worked on better processes to ensure trains don’t
run into each other in the first place. The erosion of technical capability in
rail is driven by the legislature. You have many states that will need to work
together to completely abandon the US regulations on rail, adopt European
regulations, and replace every piece of rolling stock to comply with the new
regulations. That’s quite the undertaking, but achievable since the required
expertise still exists outside the USA.

The erosion of technical capability in nuclear power is likely unsolvable.
There is no brains trust outside the USA from which to borrow the knowledge of
metallurgy, concrete, site preparation, building design, or even design for
manufacture. This is rebooting the entire industry from scratch to produce an
unprofitable product.

~~~
bobthepanda
Actually now the US has alternative compliance regulations that let operators
use European stock without waivers:
[https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/11/20/fra-reform-
is-...](https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/11/20/fra-reform-is-here/amp/)

Now the problem is getting operators to actually buy such equipment, and then
operators getting the slots and ability to run these at a usable frequency,
speed, and reliability.

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danans
Anyone know of there is a connection beyond history and a logo between the
nuclear power plant company and the household lighting company?

[http://www.westinghouselighting.com/](http://www.westinghouselighting.com/)

~~~
kn0where
They used to be the same company:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_Corpor...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_Corporation)

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LanguageGamer
Somewhat tangential, but wikipedia has good article on the cost of different
energy sources:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source)

The cost of nuclear energy has been flat for decades, but the cost of sources
like solar has been plummeting. Nuclear doesn't have much of change without
some technological break through.

~~~
nabla9
Nuclear and renewables are not 1:1 match or comparison.

Nuclear provides steady source of electricity 24/7.

If you want same from renewable, you must add the cost of energy storage and
the cost of overcapacity.

~~~
epistasis
Same for nuclear though, a steady source of power is not a good fit for our
energy use. You have to start building thermal or battery storage, or do
specialized more-expensive designs that can operate at variable power, or get
customers to shift their load.

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xenspidey
Just make hydrogen during off-peak hours and get the hydrogen powered vehicles
up and running.

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epistasis
Same goes for renewables, but the electrons are cheaper and easier to get on
the grid!

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xenspidey
Off-peak hours for solar is also when there is no sun, so no. Wind isn't
constant either. We need a constant 24/7 source of uninterruptible energy.

~~~
epistasis
Important to define the "peak" part of "off-peak" here. Is it peak production,
peak differential between supply demand, etc.

Mid-day is off-peak for solar in many markets, and they curtail their output
so that they don't oversupply. As there is more solar built, more and more
will be curtailed.

Both nuclear and solar would need a hydrolysis system that was economical even
if not run 24x7 in order to utilize their supply-demand mismatches. This is
the biggest road block to hydrogen production with the GWh of "free"
electricity that we could currently be generating in the spring in California,
but currently just don't use.

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HPsquared
Traditional light water reactors are pretty much dead at this point, they are
not economic with the layers upon layers of required safety equipment.

What's needed is simplification - there are a wide range of inherently /
passively-safe Generation 4 designs - of which my particular interest is in
the molten salt designs (e.g. Terrestrial Energy's Integral MSR) which could
be made MUCH smaller, simpler and cheaper than traditional reactors. These
might never clear the various financial, regulatory and technical hurdles, but
one can hope...

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look_lookatme
Why is this article from 3 years ago on the front page?

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arkanciscan
Sweet sweet karma points

