
Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking - Scramblejams
https://www.howtogeek.com/342871/hey-microsoft-stop-installing-apps-on-my-pc-without-asking/
======
sofaofthedamned
For the last 15 years or so i've earned my money doing Linux stuff. Before
then I was doing VB/.NET/SQL Server etc.

January 2016 I worked at a secure facility that wanted an entire system doing
malware analysis. The bare servers were running Linux, but some of the
software used Windows so there were Windows VMs there. Usual KVM stuff.

Bear in mind this is a closed system and the Windows VMs were ephemeral, i.e.
had to be discarded and reset after each malware run where we did static code
analysis etc. So we used the Professional (hah) version, with AutoUnattend.xml
or whatever it was to automatically reset them.

This worked fine until after a certain point with WSUS - we obviously applied
security updates - where the VMs wouldn't boot. Turns out that a point in
Windows 10's life they decided you needed a better version of Windows to be
able to do the equivalent of a preseed or kickstart. 4 months of work
disappeared, plus the additional licence cost; need to run a domain etc etc.

Luckily I left soon after but trust me - at any future role I will look at
every possibility before Windows. I moved a subsequent client (large
international appliance manufacturer that you've heard of) to Linux servers
precisely because of this sort of shit.

Windows is done, it's just a case of when it disappears. This is exactly why
Microsoft are pushing Azure and Office - they know the outcome, they're just
squeezing the pips until it happens.

~~~
EpicEng
>Windows is done

Your use case is very niche compared to how MS makes most of its money on
Windows licenses. Windows isn't going anywhere until it's no longer pre-loaded
on every machine, enterprise customers stop buying it completely, and Linux is
much more user friendly on the desktop.

I don't disagree with anything else you said, admin'ing windows boxes is a
terrible experience.

~~~
sofaofthedamned
How the loving fuck can you expect to change the terms of engagement with your
OS after it's released and not expect to lose business?

I know for a fact the malware analysis software we used are now planning a
Linux version. I've literally persuaded a multinational to not continue using
.net and Windows servers because of my argument that it's not sustainable.
They alone are tens of thousands of Windows licenses that may go to Red Hat or
even Centos or Ubuntu.

Windows has already started to go - my son doesn't know how to use it, all
he's used is Google Docs or an iPhone / iPad. There is no love for Windows,
only halcyon remembrances from the likes of myself who remembered the golden
days of MSDN subscriptions. There is literally not a startup on the planet who
will decide 'fuck it, we'll use a windows domain and Office instead of o365 or
Google Apps.

~~~
EpicEng
>How the loving fuck can you expect to change the terms of engagement with
your OS after it's released and not expect to lose business?

Lock-in, that's how. The customers they care about don't always have practical
solutions, and most aren't able to make a call that will benefit everyone in
e.g. 5+ years after spending a massive amount of money.

Also, what are you replacing the desktops/laptops with?

------
Sir_Cmpwn
When you choose Windows, the computer uses you. When you choose Linux, you use
the computer. Stop complaining and start switching. It should be apparent by
now that Microsoft isn't going to stop their bad behavior.

~~~
Sohcahtoa82
I'd switch to Linux in the blink of an eye if I didn't have to worry about my
games working. WINE is great and all, but it's still not 100% compatible.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
Do you also own a PS3, PS4, Xbox One, Xbox 360, Wii, and a Nintendo Switch? Do
you miss the exclusives on them? You'll survive without the handful of games
you have to leave behind.

~~~
badsectoracula
FWIW there _are_ some games on those systems i'd love to play (Last of Us
being an example), but at least i know that they'll eventually be emulated so
even if it takes 10, 15 or whatever years i'll play them at some point.

But the two major differences between what you are talking about and what
others are talking about are that a) we have the hardware, it is totally a
software issue and b) we are mainly talking for software we already have paid
for, not software we may or may not buy in the future.

But hopefully as Linux becomes more popular with gaming (and Microsoft is
distracted with UWP and the like), Wine will also see improvements that make
gaming better. Already since Valve shown up and rattled things, Wine's gaming
compatibility seems to have improved a lot compared to previous years.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
>we are mainly talking for software we already have paid for, not software we
may or may not buy in the future.

A solution for this is to set up dual boot or whatever and use it only for the
Windows-only games, until you get bored of them. Then kill Windows and you're
free.

~~~
craftyguy
This is the exact path I took ~15 years ago. Once I realized I didn't care
much for the 'exclusively windows' games, I killed my windows partition and
haven't looked back since. The exciting twist to this story is that many of
those games are now playable on Linux because of Wine!

------
Scramblejams
It’s hard to believe that the loss of goodwill is worth whatever revenue
Microsoft’s gaining from this, so I have to assume this is them dipping their
toe into a strategy that attempts to make them more relevant to users. Maybe a
reaction to the Windows app store’s lack of success? Thoughts?

~~~
m_fayer
Using their products, you can so easily taste how Microsoft is trying to
become an "ecosystem", a "lifestyle brand", a "platform", and so on, and to
use their OS as the relentless foot in the door for getting there.

To me it's another nail in the coffin of general purpose computing. We've
accepted that mobile devices/OSs are not for general purpose computing and
expect that they come with a "lifestyle" to hawk, now one of the major
general-computing OSs is heading in the same direction.

~~~
jbigelow76
_Using their products, you can so easily taste how Microsoft is trying to
become an "ecosystem", a "lifestyle brand", a "platform", and so on, and to
use their OS as the relentless foot in the door for getting there._

I think the irony of that statement is from Windows 3.1 and on Windows (25-ish
years) was already THE defacto PC platform. I was a pretty big MS fanboy for a
long time (and make my living with .NET and their developer tools). But MS's
quixotic fetishization of their app store to me looks like dousing the legacy
(no pun intended) of their platform with gasoline and lighting it on fire.

Edit: format tweak

~~~
thomastjeffery
Indented text in HN is monospace and respects newlines (no word wrapping).
This makes it unreadable on mobile unless the lines are very short.

The generally preferred way to quote on HN is to begin the line with a > and
wrap the quote with * if desired.

It's an issue that comes up too often that HN needs to fix, but here we are.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
The reason HN does indented text that way is for code. People on HN post code
snippets as a fairly regular thing, and having code snippets word wrap (or eat
white space) is really confusing.

The problem isn't that HN does that with leading space. The problem is that
people use leading space for quotations, which isn't what it's for.

~~~
thomastjeffery
The problem is that there is no markup for quotes, so people try to fill the
void with an indent, which gives the most obvious difference to text.

------
duncan_bayne
Many (most?) people on Hacker News might be too young to remember the
Halloween Documents. They were internal Microsoft documents describing their
proposed strategy for dealing with competition from then-new Free Software
alternatives:

[http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/](http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/)

If you want to understand why Microsoft is acting the way they are, read those
documents.

It's not that I think they are still executing the strategies and tactics
spelled out therein. Quite the contrary; Microsoft realises they've lost the
OS war to Linux (on one front) and OSX (on the other).

The point is how astonishingly user-hostile those memos are. They lay out a
strategy for competing with Free Software that has almost nothing to do with
their users' needs and wants. Instead, the obvious assumption is that their
users will be sacrificed to their (Microsoft's) strategic goals.

That's not to say that individual Microsoft teams don't produce excellent,
user-centric software (two I can think of in my own experience are Excel and
Visual Studio).

But the executive leadership, and company culture as a whole, seems to care
little about the people who actually use their products. This was clearly true
back in the 90s, and is clearly true now. In the 90s it was 'embrace and
extend', in the 2010s it's 'track and advertise'.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
Those memos are over 20 years old. You can't point to something 20 years old
and say "see, they did it before therefore that's what's happening today".

I'm not a fan of what they're doing with some of the Windows 10 defaults. But
you gotta be crazy to not see the user improvements they've done in so many
other areas. They are a very, very different company than they were back then.
I'm not saying that excuses anything but you're drawing false equivalences
using a 2 decades old set of memos to try and back it.

~~~
Karunamon
In the same way, you also can't say "That's 20 years old and not relevant
anymore". Appeal to novelty fallacy and all that.

Are they _really_ that different of a company? Microsoft is _huge_ ,
organizational memory is long, and decisions made long ago, whether rational
or mere cargo culting, will affect how they run today.

I'd argue they're a bit more cunning, but not one whit less underhanded. The
EU browser ballot thing was considerably more recent, for instance. The forced
W10 upgrades with the trick X dialog. Dark patterns surrounding use of a
Microsoft account. Non-disableable telemetry. Hawking Edge in a way that would
even make Chrome blush [1].

I think they know that they can't be as overt anymore; a couple of antitrust
suits will do that to you.

[1]: [https://i.imgur.com/W56CuN6.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/W56CuN6.jpg)

------
beached_whale
I use Windows when I have to now. I used to use Visual Studio as it is really
good. But since Windows 8 and more so Windows 10 they have started taking from
me. I paid for Windows 10 Pro, but I am subjected to the task of repeatedly
removing software, or adverts for software, that I explicitly said remove.
This is repeated when major updates go through. Plus the extra data and
processing to get a system that isn't using my resources for tasks that I did
not ask it too. It is my computer, not theirs.

So I dual boot and 99% of the time sit in Kubuntu land and my computer is
fast, responsive, and generally only doing what I ask it too. As it should be.

Microsoft found a way to take an i7-7500 with 32GB of ram and make it feel
slow on a fast OS. Windows 10 can be fast.

~~~
itwy
Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

~~~
beached_whale
Windows 10 would be fast if it wasn't busy doing tasks I didn't ask it to.

------
vbezhenar
Those articles are funny because for me all previous Windows versions were
unusable, but I've found Windows 10 just the best OS. I don't have Facebook
preinstalled and even if it was, I couldn't care less about it. There are
bazillions of DLLs and other stuff preinstalled, what's the deal with one HTML
page that I don't even run. I value other things, real usability improvements
(for example virtual desktops are much better than macOS ones) and technical
advancements (Linux subsystem, hyper-v, PowerShell).

~~~
Sylos
I'm not sure how you would create a worse implementation of virtual desktops
than Windows 10 has them:

\- No indication of other workspaces existing.

\- No indication of what applications are in those other workspaces.

\- The keyboard shortcut for walking through desktops requires two hands (and
in typical Windows fashion cannot be rebound).

I'm not familiar with macOS' implementation, so if you actually think that
it's worse, then I would like to know how.

Also should be said, though, that you can replace the window manager on macOS,
which should allow you to get most of the features of an actually good
implementation of virtual desktops. I'm not aware of a way to do that on
Windows.

~~~
vbezhenar
I guess I'm using it differently, because I don't find those issues so
important for me. I'm using desktops as a different computers for different
states of mind. One desktop has some relaxing read (hacker news, for example,
or reddit), some explorers, notepads with not so important stuff. 1-2 desktops
for work projects, usually it's exactly one desktop. One desktop for gaming
and related websites, discord, etc. I'm switching between them may be one or
two times a day. I can see that if you're using multiple desktops for a single
project, something like multiple displays and often switching between them,
they might be not that usable.

macOS implementation was bad, because I accidentally switched between desktops
all the time. It shows all launched apps in the dock from all desktops. If I'm
working on my project, I don't want to see that I have Battle.net client
launched and 10 unread notifications in Discord guild channel. If I'm clicking
on Safari icon, I want to launch new window on current desktop, I don't want
to switch to another desktop with some random website.

Anyway the main point of virtual desktops is that they are implemented at OS
level. Actual interface is not very important, because if API exists, 3-rd
party programs can embrace it. For example Windows 7 had virtual desktops
implemented on system level (there wasn't UI to manage them), but API was very
limited, for example it wasn't possible to move windows between desktops. Also
applications usually weren't aware about those desktops and sometimes were
outright buggy (for example you couldn't launch second Firefox window on
another desktop).

------
TwoNineA
I set up my brother in-law's new HP laptop he got from Costco and I had to
spend over 2 hours removing crap from it. The amount of crapware installed
(and a lot of them are MS apps) is unreal.

~~~
HenryBemis
(Unfortunately) HP has been loading their machines with crapware for about a
decade now. :(

~~~
TwoNineA
Why is MS cramming down my throat some 3D Pain thing, Augmented Reality crap
and other apps I don't care about?

Edit: Oh and Camera app. On a desktop. Without even a webcam. What is the
justification for that?

~~~
Amezarak
> Why is MS cramming down my throat some 3D Pain thing, Augmented Reality crap
> and other apps I don't care about?

How many OSs come without any graphics applications installed?

> Edit: Oh and Camera app. On a desktop. Without even a webcam. What is the
> justification for that?

Because a lot of hardware _does_ have a webcam and thus benefits from having
the app, while hardware without it sees nothing but a negligible HHD space
impact.

~~~
Sylos
Coming without any graphical applications and coming with 3D or AR software is
a big difference. 90% of users will be able to make use of a simple image
editor. 0.1% of users will be able to make use of 3D and AR.

------
derrikcurran
There are so many accounts of Windows 10 being installed, (re)installing apps,
adding tiles that were previously removed, etc. without permission... but none
of it has ever happened to me and I don't understand why. It's bewildering.
Maybe it's because I have Windows 10 Pro instead of Home? The only thing I've
seen is that it's pretty aggressive about badgering me to restart for an
update (but doesn't restart until I say it can).

~~~
zeta0134
I don't know how much truth there is to this, and I'll check with my personal
machines when I get home (I run Linux at work) but when I worked in a retail
space, the apps that were pre-loaded varied based on the OEM. Dell got a set,
Toshiba got a different set, Lenovo got a different set, etc. Sometimes it
varied based on the particular line, like HP would include a different set of
games on their laptops that had touchscreen devices, etc.

I'm not 100% confident on this and I haven't worked in Retail for a couple of
years thankfully, but I suspect strongly that the apps that are installed are
pushed not by Microsoft, but by the OEM in their recovery image. I suspect
thus that if you buy a standalone version of Windows 10, and clean install the
machine with nothing else on the hard drive, that you won't get those apps
pre-installed. But buy a computer with Windows 10 preloaded, and the sky's the
limit, the OEM pushes what they want, and Microsoft makes it difficult to opt
out.

I'd love someone else to weigh in on this, because I've been distanced from
the situation for a while. But no matter how you slice it, users are getting
increasingly frustrated, and I think it's a terrible business strategy for
Microsoft. They've ruined any potential trust I might have had for their app
store before it had a chance to even take off, and I'm not sure they'll be
able to recover. If anything, I've got my eyes on Google, who stand positioned
to completely shake up the personal computer space with Chrome OS and its
budding Android apps support. It'll be interesting to see how the space
unfolds.

------
bondolo
I have never used Windows 10 nor made significant use of any Windows version
since Windows XP. Nonetheless my parents asked me to look at some issues they
were having with their laptops. The trend of increasing clutter that has
plagued Windows since XP seems to have accelerated. The user experience
appears to have been designed by a hoarder. I spent a significant amount of
time asking "Do you know what this is? Do you use it?" to be able to remove
some of the many goo-gahs that had been helpfully installed by either Windows
or one of their devices. It made me sad that my parents just accepted that
this was how computers are because they were unaware that the crap-strewn-
everywhere experience was a deliberate choice for the Windows ecosystem.

~~~
thirdsun
To be fair, I'm not sure if Windows alone is to blame in this case.

If you're not familiar with Windows and try to clean a PC that isn't yours,
it's probably hard to tell what was user installed, what was pre-installed by
the manufacturers (they love to include bloatware and unnecessary "tools") and
what actually came with Windows.

It's very easy for unaware users to install all sorts of crap and they never
know where it came from or what it does - that's basically every PC of a non-
tech-savvy user ever.

------
aphextron
To anyone wondering, all of that crap can be removed with PowerShell:
[https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/easily-remove-bloatware-
window...](https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/easily-remove-bloatware-windows-10/)

~~~
edsouza
I have done that before, but on the first anniversary update, they all come
back. I will try it again, and wait for the next anniversary update to see if
they come back again.

~~~
slumberlust
Spoiler: They will come back.

------
xeromal
I'd recommend running Windows Server 2016 or Windows 10 LTSB to avoid the
entire mess. I run WS 2016 for my dev machine and I haven't had any issues and
I don't have to deal with the damned Windows Store.

~~~
Groxx
Any problems with Server / LTSB for gaming?

(honest question - that's the sole reason I have windows _anything_ and I'd be
_thrilled_ to get rid of all the absolute nonsense they've been throwing at
me)

~~~
xeromal
I run server 2016 and I can run all my dev tools. VS Code, VS 20x, SSMS,
MySQL, PostGres, Xamarin.

On top of that, I can run Rome 2 Total War which is not a simple game. It runs
great.

------
keithnz
It's a tricky problem. I think tech people are fringe. For me, I would want to
disable it all. But if people can turn it off then it doesn't let microsoft
improve and adapt. In concept, I kind of like the idea the OS could anticipate
the things I need. It's how we imagine futuristic computer systems. It's a bit
different from the traditional OS where you are the master over everything.

I'm not sure many on HN are going to like this thing, but I would think MS
gets to see the stats and has better view of how well they are doing.
Percentage wise it might be working out pretty good, however, each percentage
point they piss off ends up being a lot of people and if the fringe of tech
people are in that 1% that can end up in a lot of angry blogs.

~~~
tmorton
_boggle_

What?

NO. Just no.

This doesn't "anticipate the things I need". It doesn't "anticipate" anything.
It's not "the things I need", it's whatever MS decides to promote.

There's a vaguely similar feature, that would be vaguely defensible - but this
isn't it. This is malware, plain and simple.

~~~
titanix2
Totally agree. My computers are my things and should be under my control only.
That’s why I’m wary of Win 10 which forces system replacement, install
softwares without consent, display advertisements, can preload UWP apps in
memory, etc. All this things might be an acceptable comprise on mobile for
some people (which include myself) but is a big no go on anything desktop or
server class.

My harware is not here to be part of someone else botnet. If MS wants my
money, let’s make good product without subscription and let me pay for it. I
would be glad to pay 20 to 50€ for Visual Studio if it encourages user
friendly business practices.

~~~
keithnz
your computer is your thing, install whatever OS you like. If you want a non
consumer experience and want windows, go with a server product.

People are never gonna be happy with change. Not so long ago they took paint
(which they insisted on us having whether we wanted it or not) out of the base
install of their "botnet / malware" and people lost their shit. Now windows
dynamically asks you whether you want a program and people are again losing
their shit. In both cases it's microsoft making a call on what apps are on
your machine. In both cases you can uninstall them.

------
mixmastamyk
I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole a product from a company that that
thinks this is acceptable.

------
Animats
And that's why my one remaining Windows machine runs Windows 7.

~~~
djaychela
Me too. I have a perfectly functional music studio computer that's dual-
booting Win7 on both partitions - one for more general use and making YouTube
videos, and the other for making music. I've had quite a few 'why aren't you
running Win10' comments... I have nothing to gain and a lot to lose - time if
nothing else. I hate the Win10 UI, bloatware and changing things without your
consent, and Win7 works perfectly for me at the moment.

~~~
tim333
Yeah I 'upgraded' to 10 then 'downgraded' back to 7. I've yet to regret going
back.

------
ulkesh
Hey Microsoft, also stop rebooting without asking. In fact, just stop
automatically doing anything and let me choose to do it myself. Be more like
Linux.

~~~
Tijdreiziger
This doesn't work for a majority of Windows users, because when given the
choice, they will never reboot.

~~~
ulkesh
Which is how it should be.

Microsoft should design their OS to not require reboots for updates. The only
time I ever have to reboot my Linux box is for a kernel update — that’s it.

------
hokkos
Windows has a new feature called "Controlled Folder Access", it is a security
mecanism that protect from ransomware. It is a great idea, but the
implementation is annoying. It block write access to selected directories, so
lot of software fail to add a link to the desktop, or add files in the
Documents folder. It should have protect agains delete not new file creation.
Also the default Defender antivirus is so slow, it make the installation of
software package 2 or 3 slower.

[https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10s-...](https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10s-controlled-
folder-access-anti-ransomware-feature-is-now-live/)

~~~
emodendroket
To protect from ransomware you need to at least prevent modification of
existing files.

~~~
Sylos
Which he did not argue against. He said that creating new files should still
be possible.

~~~
emodendroket
Well he only mentions delete. Do the Windows permissions actually make a
meaningful distinction between create and modify? I think that might have been
difficult to do without completely rewriting a lot of stuff.

------
remir
I whish ReactOS was mature enough that you could run every win32 programs and
games in it perfectly.

------
Timothycquinn
Had similar experience with not being able to disable the windows store for my
kids accounts. It was simply not possible and I followed all the Microsoft
recommended procedures and external suggested ones to no avail. I just gave up
and stopped using Windows for my family computer and spun back up an older mac
Mini. This kind of lock in is very bad for the ecosystem and is a security
nightmare. I don't know if I will ever use consumer grade windows for my
personal computers any longer.

------
expertentipp
Now we won’t because your computer belongs to us. psssst have you heard about
our new programming language TypeScript? Just adopt it, this time it will work
out perfectly between us.

------
x3sphere
I only run Windows inside a VM now. The main reason I didn't switch to Linux
sooner was because of games, but GPU passthrough works well enough now that I
can dedicate my main GPU to a VM and get close to native performance (within
3-5%). Currently I have a Vega 64 configured for passthrough on a Threadripper
1950X system and it runs great. It's much more convenient than dual booting.

~~~
Qerub
I find this solution interesting. What virtualization software do you use? In
what way to do you expose input devices to the VM?

------
nkrisc
I've considered upgrading to Windows 10 from time to time but then I read
something like this.

Is there a way to completely/permanently neuter the Windows App store and
functions like the one mentioned here?

~~~
Chardok
Unfortunately any workaround we find has been "broken" with the subsequent
Windows update, meaning Microsoft is actively working against any fixes for
it.

I would love to be proven wrong, but the only way I know for sure is upgrading
to the Enterprise or education editions.

------
ThoAppelsin
This isn't really an issue that goes beyond your first 1 hour on your new
Windows 10 computer. You delete them, and then they are gone forever. They _do
not_ re-install themselves, they only come with a new user account.

They were annoying to me, only when I had installed the Windows 10 for the
very first time, 2 years ago. I had several Windows 10 re-installations since
then, and it really isn't worth nagging about them for the 30-45 seconds they
steal from you as you remove them.

Besides, my housemate actually liked and kept some of them on his account. It
probably really just does increase the overall customer experience.

~~~
mikhailt
Except on two separate machines, a Windows update reinstalled them for me. MS
did said it was a bug but it happened a few times after that for me.

~~~
ThoAppelsin
I think I also may have had some ads back with a major update (e.g. Creators,
Fall Creators), but I don't remember having them back ever with the normal
updates.

In any case, it really is just a breeze to remove UWP apps, and they leave no
trace either, so I cannot rationalize how it can be this so annoying to
anyone.

~~~
suby
The ad issue is separate to me. They keep adding ads to more and more places
in Windows 10, and each location has a different toggle to turn on / off.

I turned off all advertising options in Windows 10 when I first installed,
only to be greeted by another ad months later which they had added with a
newly downloaded update.

The toggles aren't even centralized, you have to hunt them down in different
menus. I have a hard time believing this wasn't done on purpose.

------
hello_asdf
Is there a list of domains that Microsoft is using to download these apps
from? I can't find one by Googling.

------
rbobby
It's going to be odd if Win10 gets labeled as PUP (potentially unwanted
program) by antivirus software.

~~~
gruez
which is going to happen... never. unless that said antivirus wants to commit
market suicide by pissing off every user.

~~~
mtgx
True. But it could make for a pretty funny April Fools' joke (-in disguise).

------
garganzol
Never happened to me. I use a free tool called "Spybot Anti-Beacon for Windows
10" [https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/](https://www.safer-
networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/) on ALL machines I have. Cannot recommend
it enough.

